China's Westward One Belt One Road Strategy

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Humm, I'm not comfortable with your definition of Kenyans. But, putting that aside, most politicians and academics are smart, well educated, and successful people, and could read financial statements and make sophisticated analysis. I don't expect any different from Kenyan politicians, educators, and professional journalists.

What financial statement are you talking here. The line was just inaugurated last week. so they don't have any data to base on their analysis. Any analysis that they do is just conjecture and nothing else
As I said before if you based it solely on ticket sale and freight fee It doesn't make sense

But that is not what the railway are for They are designed to help the port congestion as the port tonnage grew 5% per year Soon the road will be so clogged up as parking lot and nothing is moving if they don;t do anything

It is also provide connectivity with neighboring country facilitate trade and promote economic activity.

Don;t underestimate black op we see it in operation at Myatsone dam in Myanmar where western NGO supported and abetted Myanmar opposition to the dam
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
What financial statement are you talking here. The line was just inaugurated last week. so they don't have any data to base on their analysis. Any analysis that they do is just conjecture and nothing else
As I said before if you based it solely on ticket sale and freight fee It doesn't make sense

But that is not what the railway are for They are designed to help the port congestion as the port tonnage grew 5% per year Soon the road will be so clogged up as parking lot and nothing is moving if they don;t do anything

It is also provide connectivity with neighboring country facilitate trade and promote economic activity.

Don;t underestimate black op we see it in operation at Myatsone dam in Myanmar where western NGO supported and abetted Myanmar opposition to the dam
You don't think Kenyan government either received financial forecasts as part of China's official bid or created the documents themselves to evaluate the projected ROI of the biggest project in Kenya's history since its independence? Seriously?

Black ops? Myanmar dam? Is that with black helicopters? This is where I get off your conspiracy train, because I don't believe any of it without solid evidence from reputable sources.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
Maintenance is only part of SGR's future, ROI is another. Can the Kenya RR operate at a profit, and at a rate to pay off loans at the appointed time?



That is the fallacy of western critic they only look thing thru narrow lenses and missed the big picture
ROI based on what Ticket sale and freight cost?. Of course looking only at those 2 it doesn't make sense

But if you look at larger picture like reducing transport cost by 40 to 50% and speeding up the travel time between Nairobi and port city of Mombassa and increase the efficiency of the port and avoid delay
Alleviating traffic jam and with it the attended cost of wasted gasoline, wear an tear on truck, Lost time
Spurring the development of industrial estate along the railway. Increasing the value of real estate along the line
Improving tourism and hospitality industry
Facilitating connectivity between neighboring country
Training and improving the skill of 23000 Kenyan in modern railroad and communication
Fostering industrialization etc, etc

It was estimated that the Kenya GDP will increase by 1-1/5% because of the railway
The answer to your question is BIG YES! They will recoup the investment cost in no time



You're off base in the Kenya SGR case
, because it is Kenyans themselves questioning cost vs. benefit, and it is the Kenyan government that has produced videos and news infomercials to assure Kenyans the SGR would be profitable and a good investment for the country.

He is not off base.
He made a list of intangible benefits which are definitely legit in considering ROI to pin point the net effects.
Educate us why he is off base puhlease, how would you do your RoI thingy that you brought in here?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
You don't think Kenyan government either received financial forecasts as part of China's official bid or created the documents themselves to evaluate the projected ROI of the biggest project in Kenya's history since its independence? Seriously?

Black ops? Myanmar dam? Is that with black helicopters? This is where I get off your conspiracy train, because I don't believe any of it without solid evidence from reputable sources.

This is not some kind of MA or take over of a company
The primary consideration is addressing the severe bottle neck of transportation Just like repairing your house do you do cost benefit analysis if your roof leak?
No you call roofer and get estimate You might call several roofer to get the lowest estimate.

The economic analysis come second It is not the other way around
The added benefit of good infrastructure is increase economic activity and in turn increase tax revenue
So of course the Chinese provide an economic benefit analysis of increase of one and half percent of GDP
But at the end you just do it because there is urgent need for it just like your leaky roof
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
This is not some kind of MA or take over of a company
The primary consideration is addressing the severe bottle neck of transportation Just like repairing your house do you do cost benefit analysis if your roof leak?
No you call roofer and get estimate You might call several roofer to get the lowest estimate.

The economic analysis come second It is not the other way around
The added benefit of good infrastructure is increase economic activity and in turn increase tax revenue
So of course the Chinese provide an economic benefit analysis of increase of one and half percent of GDP
But at the end you just do it because there is urgent need for it just like your leaky roof
Good, we now agree there was financial cost/benefit analysis (ROI). We're making progress. The next issue is cost overruns and how it exploded by 4x. A lot of Chinese projects I read meet or beat cost and schedule, so it's odd the Kenya SGR project is such an outlier. One explanation of cost overrun is the Kenyan President, Uhuru Kenyatta, asked the Chinese to pull in the schedule to improve his reelection chances next year, and that would naturally increase costs. But, it doesn't explain the vast 400% rise, so something else is amiss. Why is that important? Because the opposition party has used eyepopping cost overruns as a wedge issue against President Kenyatta, and by inference the China Road and Bridge Corporation and its associate partners (it's easy to bash foreigners).

The bottom line is nasty politics induce unhelpful variables and unintended consequences in major infrastructure projects. That was true in Myanmar's dam project, and it is true in Kenya SGR project. Since Kenya is in a presidential election cycle, fact-based but complex economic arguments could easily be overwhelmed by simple but effective demagoguery. Throw in the likelihood of corruption by some officials, and the opposition party could turn a positive project into a negative one.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Good, we now agree there was financial cost/benefit analysis (ROI). We're making progress. The next issue is cost overruns and how it exploded by 4x. A lot of Chinese projects I read meet or beat cost and schedule, so it's odd the Kenya SGR project is such an outlier. One explanation of cost overrun is the Kenyan President, Uhuru Kenyatta, asked the Chinese to pull in the schedule to improve his reelection chances next year, and that would naturally increase costs. But, it doesn't explain the vast 400% rise, so something else is amiss. Why is that important? Because the opposition party has used eyepopping cost overruns as a wedge issue against President Kenyatta, and by inference the China Road and Bridge Corporation and its associate partners (it's easy to bash foreigners).

I guess you missed my message:
READ
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-economics-thread.t3715/page-755#post-458329
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Exactly He never read the post or ignore it

Here excerpt from the article that t2contra provided the link
It explain why the cost of Kenyan line is high just as I said before in my earlier post It has nothing to do with corruption or upcoming election.
It has more to do with changing requirement due to environment and political agenda that was not anticipated earlier
It cost more because they have to built 33 new grand station whereas the Ethiopian line use existing rail station or simple building.
Some section of the railway is elevated that add to the cost
Plus land in Ethiopia is owned by the government and in Kenya they have to pay huge compensation to the owner
Anyway the rail is built now and sofar the public is happy with it and It was built to high standard

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The Kenyan political landscape unlike the Ethiopian one is very acrimonious. A project of this magnitude is influenced by the political government of the day. You cannot rule out politics and thus a lot of the attacks on the SGR are politically motivated. Some delays are as a result of the contractors and government facing politically motivated opposition including court cases which end up escalating the cost of the project while delaying it.

The terrain of the SGR rises from an altitude of 500m at the coast to over 1700 by the time it is leaving Nairobi. This means the gradient of the rail line directly affects the cost and construction time with some parts of the route requiring tunneling to maintain viability. In Morocco, the line they built along the coastal area never rose beyond 600 altitude meaning the ground was almost flat all the way.

The SGR has met a lot of opposition including from animal rights defenders when it was realized it had to cut through protected wildlife areas. A case was lodged at the courts stalling the construction for many valuable weeks. In the end the line had to be modified to accommodate wildlife crossing areas and herders routes. These directly escalated costs and the delays meant we were paying for work that was not being done.

Unlike Ethiopia where land is government owned, the Kenyan SGR cuts through a lot of private property thus the mandatory acquisition poses myriad of problems to the contractor. Some private citizens have instituted court proceedings against the contractor while some have refused the market rate compensation offered by the government. This has not only delayed the construction but pushed the costs higher both in legal fees and compensation.

The argument on train speeds holds no water because as mentioned earlier, the SGR was part of the vision 2030 mega projects that was meant to open up the interior and improve the livelihoods of the people. This means that the various stops along the routes have been designed with enhancing opportunities of the locals in mind. How would they ever have their produce ferried with bullet trains? How would they ever enjoy the train if it never stops near them? Seeing that the SGR will average a speed of 120km/h, this translates to approximately 4.5hrs from Nairobi to Mombasa. This is quite commendable considering the trip currently takes almost 8hrs by road.

The SGR will decongest the ports, lower road accidents, open up the interior, avail employment opportunities, boost the economy, attract foreign and local investments, rejuvenate rural livelihoods and it shall boost tourism. This is our Kenyan pride and despite the hurdles it shall remain a national
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Interesting only 2 country that are significant energy producer Kazakhstan for oil and Turkmenistan for gas. both are connected to China with pipeline
Energy in Central Asia: Who Has What?
Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and a breakdown of their energy resources.
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By
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June 15, 2017

Each summer, BP releases
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. The review — in its 66th year — is well regarded and draws on a variety of sources, giving one of the most comprehensive views of energy reserves and consumption around the world.

Buried amid the tables are Central Asia’s three energy-rich states: Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. As energy plays a central role in the economies of these states, it’s worth taking stock of where the last few tumultuous years have left them.

Of course, what happens in Central Asia’s energy markets is necessarily impacted by global trends. In the review’s intro, BP CEO Bob Dudley writes, “Global energy markets are in transition.” He points to Asia a major arena of growth, rather than “traditional markets” in the OECD. A focus on efficiency has led to stagnating consumption and “environmental needs and technological advances” are shifting consumption toward cleaner sources. For oil, 2016 was a “year of adjustment” and for gas, “global production was essentially flat” with the exception of liquefied natural gas (LNG) exports.

thediplomat_2015-06-02_19-47-14-386x287.jpg


How do these global trends look in Central Asia?

Let’s look at Kazakhstan first. The 2014 cratering of the oil market, a product of geopolitics far beyond the steppe, hit Kazakhstan particularly hard. Oil production in Kazakhstan fell for the third consecutive year (-1.4 percent from 2015 to 2016) to 1.672 million barrels per day. Nonetheless, Kazakhstan remains one of the top producers in the Europe and Eurasia region, behind Russia and Norway and ahead of Azerbaijan.

Astana has been sly about oil production, making tacit promises to OPEC to cut back while also reveling in the
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, which came online (again) last fall. Meanwhile, production has fallen at some of the older Kazakh fields, balancing some of the boom at Kashagan.

Natural gas production in Kazakhstan, an energy industry secondary to gas, is much more modest. At the same time, the country’s natural gas production has grown consistently over the last several years, from 19.0 billion cubic meters in 2015 to 19.9, a growth of 4.5 percent. Most of that was exported to Russia by pipeline, with a small amount (only 0.4 billion cubic meters) to China.

Meanwhhile, Turkmenistan’s insular nature and dependence on a single customer has seemed to finally be reflected in its gas production numbers. According to the BP report, natural gas production fell for the first time since 2009, from 69.6 billion cubic meters to 66.8, a decline of 4.3 percent. An overwhelming majority of Turkmenistan’s natural gas was exported in 2016 to China (29.4 billion cubic meters), followed by Iran (6.7 billion cubic meters) and Kazakhstan (1.1 billion cubic meters). According to the report, Turkmenistan exported 37.3 billion cubic meters of gas in 2016.

Given Ashgabat’s
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at the start of 2017 these figures are likely to worsen in next year’s report. Turkmenistan lost Russia as customer
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. Consumption continues to rise in China, so demand remains for Turkmen gas, but not at the pace of previous years.

In the oil market, Turkmenistan has stagnated. Oil production from 2015 to 2016 remains unchanged at 261,000 barrels per day.

How about Uzbekistan? The country is often described as resource rich, but it doesn’t belong on the same plane as Turkmenistan with gas and Kazakhstan with oil. It also doesn’t belong with Tajikistan or Kyrgyzstan, neither of which merit inclusion in the BP report. Uzbekistan, rather than being energy rich, should perhaps be described as energy diverse.

In terms of oil, Tashkent has seen steady decline in production over the past decade. Oil production in 2016 (55,000 barrels per day) is about half what it was in 2006 (114,000 barrels per day). Following global trends toward cleaner fuels, natural gas production jumped 8.4 percent between 2015 and 2016, the highest growth rate among the individual countries listed from the Europe and Eurasia region in the report. Uzbekistan’s natural gas exports are also more balanced than Turkmenistan’s, with 1.5 billion cubic meters going to Kazakhstan, 5.0 billion cubic meters to Russia, and 4.3 billion cubic meters going to China.

Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan’s reliance on oil and gas, respectively, ties their economies to the whims of those markets. Uzbekistan is a bit more insulated, if only because it is less dependent on oil and gas revenues.

One area which is less explored in the statistical report and vitally important to the future of Central Asia’s economies is renewable energy. BP includes consumption data for hydroelectric and other renewable sources but doesn’t include production for either. We can glean a piece of the production puzzle from electricity generation, which increased in all three states from 2015 to 2016. Kazakhstan generated 94.5 terawatt-hours in 2016, Turkmenistan 22.6 terawatt-hours, and Uzbekistan 58.9 terawatt-hours (increases of 2.8, 4.7, and 1.9 percent, respectively).
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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Just shows how desperate they are when all they're doing is repeating their misgivings when they can just not be a part of it.

Of course it's all about China. Europe, Japan, and India say they had their own plans before China's. The new "Silk Road" no matter who's idea it is all about access to China. It doesn't happen if China weren't a part of it. That's why they never initiated anything. Only China can do it without Europe, India, and Japan being involved. The EU is over-stretched and India and Japan don't have the money.

Look at how much poor North Korea occupies their nightmares. The West criticisms and worries over China's regional development plans aren't about lack of good governance as they say. They just don't want a bunch of North Koreas, or worse yet... a bunch of Chinas in this world. That's why they left these parts of the world without the pleasure of their moralistic hearts. The only reason why they care about these places now is because China would get the credit and not them. They want to tease developmental money for favors and influence in other countries who want their economies to develop. That's what they mean by good governance. I read that Japan and India may start their own Silk Road. China's OROB opens economic opportunities for countries along their routes not just creating alternative routes for trade between Europe, Japan, and India because they certainly didn't care about the countries in between or they would've already done it.
 
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