China's SCS Strategy Thread

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US challenges any nation that claims it has sovereign control of water ways outside internationally recognized territorial limits. That usually means 12 miles for islands and coasts, 3 miles for land features, and 500 meters for artificial islands. You will note USN spokesman said USS Decatur stayed outside 12 mile limits of all Parcel island land features, and China's Defense Ministry didn't contradict that claim. Therefore we could safely assume it is true. Given that fact, it doesn't matter what "baseline" China established in 2016, 1996, 1066, or even 66 BC, those baseline don't impede freedom of the seas outside internationally recognized sovereign territorial limits.

Quite frankly, I think the US is making a mistake by not sailing (safely) near the 3 mile limit of land features and near 500 meter of artificial islands. It should do just that, if FON has any real meaning. But, that's just my personal opinion.

It doesn't matter what excuses the US makes for it's FON Ops the deeper reasoning behind is to try to deny China's ability to counter the US chances to embargo and surround the PRC at will whenever somebody step out of line of the gunboat policy. We can also safely assume that the US has stepped over someone else's 'baseline' for it's own purpose. The world doesn't revolve around whatever the US wishes. It's that simple, the world has changed and so is the time and politics.

 

[Blackstone]

It doesn't matter what excuses the US makes for it's FON Ops the deeper reasoning behind is to try to deny China's ability to counter the US chances to embargo and surround the PRC at will whenever somebody step out of line of the gunboat policy. We can also safely assume that the US has stepped over someone else's 'baseline' for it's own purpose. The world doesn't revolve around whatever the US wishes. It's that simple, the world has changed and so is the time and politics.

Take a deep breath and tell us what international law did USS Decatur violate. Just the facts, ma'am and save the propaganda for the ill informed.

 

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Take a deep breath and tell us what international law did USS Decatur violate. Just the facts, ma'am and save the propaganda for the ill informed.

What about what good is the US doing trying to stir up trouble in the SCS? China has always been adamant and willing to talk to ALL nations that are in territorial dispute to resolve the problem peacefully. Than here comes the US fake FON Ops trying to stick it's nose where it don't belong after the momentum swung positively to China's way.

 

[weig2000]

US challenges any nation that claims it has sovereign control of water ways outside internationally recognized territorial limits. That usually means 12 miles for islands and coasts, 3 miles for land features, and 500 meters for artificial islands. You will note USN spokesman said USS Decatur stayed outside 12 mile limits of all Parcel island land features, and China's Defense Ministry didn't contradict that claim. Therefore we could safely assume it is true. Given that fact, it doesn't matter what "baseline" China established in 2016, 1996, 1066, or even 66 BC, those baseline don't impede freedom of the seas outside internationally recognized sovereign territorial limits.

Quite frankly, I think the US is making a mistake by not sailing (safely) near the 3 mile limit of land features, and near 500 meter of artificial islands. It should do just that, if FON has any real meaning. But, that's just my personal opinion.

Quite frankly, I think that would be a grave mistake.

Currently there is gray area of how to interpret the so-called international laws. This has been discussed multiple times in the past. That's also why we see US and China got into arguments over some of the US military activities near China's shores in the past.

What the US has been doing is provoking. I think China might allow some of these kinds of incidents to go passing and give the US room to make some claims. But if the US keeps pushing and pushing hard, the chance of a conflict will increase significantly and it can get out of control. China is no pushover, and its government is also under tremendous pressure domestically. As Xi Jinping told Obama before, when severely cornered, even a rabbit will kick. You need check PRC's records to understand that.

I think the US government has also been cautious. It's under a lot of domestic pressure to make some "tough" statements, but it also tries to rein some of hot-headed pushes from the US military. It's a difficult balancing job for both governments.

I don't usually want to get into these kinds of arguments because of the nasty implications that they would usually lead to. But let me say this: if you think you can bully China into submission without any recoils, you'd be wrong. When that happens, WTF.

 

[Blackstone]

What about what good is the US doing trying to stir up trouble in the SCS? China has always been adamant and willing to talk to ALL nations that are in territorial dispute to resolve the problem peacefully. Than here comes the US fake FON Ops trying to stick it's nose where it don't belong after the momentum swung positively to China's way.

Again, I ask you to answer my question of what international laws did the recent FONOP by USS Decatur violate. You keep skipping that very important point, and we can't have a reasonable discussion without first establishing that baseline.

 

[Blackstone]

Quite frankly, I think that would be a grave mistake.

Currently there is gray area of how to interpret the so-called international laws. This has been discussed multiple times in the past. That's also why we see US and China got into arguments over some of the US military activities near China's shores in the past.

What the US has been doing is provoking. I think China might allow some of these kinds of incidents to go passing and give the US room to make some claims. But if the US keeps pushing and pushing hard, the chance of a conflict will increase significantly and it can get out of control. China is no pushover, and its government is also under tremendous pressure domestically. As Xi Jinping told Obama before, when severely cornered, even a rabbit will kick. You need check PRC's records to understand that.

I think the US government has also been cautious. It's under a lot of domestic pressure to make some "tough" statements, but it also tries to rein some of hot-headed pushes from the US military. It's a difficult balancing job for both governments.

I don't usually want to get into these kinds of arguments because of the nasty implications that they would usually lead to. But let me say this: if you think you can bully China into submission without any recoils, you'd be wrong. When that happens, WTF.

You're entitled to your opinion on whether current US FONOPs are good, bad, benign, or dangerous. I get all sides of those arguments, and agree there are merits and deficits on all sides. It's a very complex issue and defies simple framing, that's why we all sound both reasonable and unreasonable at different points of the argument. SE Asian countries have a good saying, "whether the elephants fight or make love, the grass gets trampled." US and China are the elephants, and the rest of world hold their breath regardless if the two are headbutting or pilow-talking. Brave new world we're in.

 

[weig2000]

You're entitled to your opinion on whether current US FONOPs are good, bad, benign, or dangerous. I get all sides of those arguments, and agree there are merits and deficits on all sides. It's a very complex issue and defies simple framing, that's why we all sound both reasonable and unreasonable at different points of the argument. SE Asian countries have a good saying, "whether the elephants fight or make love, the grass gets trampled." US and China are the elephants, and the rest of world hold their breath regardless if the two are headbutting or pilow-talking. Brave new world we're in.

Of course, I'm entitled to my opinions, just like you're to yours.

I'm merely pointing out the significant danger involved if more people start to follow your suggested path. When the illegal ruling from PCA was announced in July, the whole Chinese nation was incensed, and I do think much of the population and even many sectors of the government and military were ready to go to war if someone seriously wanted to enforce that ruling. More than some arcane interpretation of some ambiguous international laws are at stake in these cases. If some vital national interest of the US were threatened or at stake, I don't think the US would give a f*** about international laws. It's the same for China, international laws be damned if China's vital and core national interest were at stake.

People of course are feel to express their opinions, including advocating conflict with China or any country if perceived prestige or interest were involved. But I do think responsible people should not push down a path where big powers like the US or China were cornered, without seriously thinking through the consequences. This is just my opinion, of course.

 

[Blackstone]

@weig2000- more or less, even though all nations have FONOP rights, we don't actually disagree much on wisdom of too much Ops. We also agree US pursues its own interests, international laws be damned. But, that's par for all other nations too, they just don't cast as big footprints as US or China.

 

[tidalwave]

Again, I ask you to answer my question of what international laws did the recent FONOP by USS Decatur violate. You keep skipping that very important point, and we can't have a reasonable discussion without first establishing that baseline.

You are right, US entitled to do that. Nothing is violated. But if FONOP, shouldn't be more pertinent to mischief island or scarborough island instead of Woody island.

its a huge disrespect on personal level like someone came up to you and spit on the ground next to your shoes.
or when you lying down on floor , someone purposely stride over you with you underneath his groin.

Technically, he didn't hit you with anything. Should be No violation and very doable right?

wrong, 9/10 times, men will react and hit back the other guy doing the disrespect thing.

This kind of stuff is what playground bully do, try to provoke someone.

 

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Again, I ask you to answer my question of what international laws did the recent FONOP by USS Decatur violate. You keep skipping that very important point, and we can't have a reasonable discussion without first establishing that baseline.

International laws is not written in stone, therefore irrelevant to this debate, my beef is that the US ONLY does FONOP is base purely to get China's neighbors joined them in an exercise to trying to contain China through military showmanship. So far it hasn't gotten the US anywhere other than the Philippines and Vietnam pivoting away from the US and their goals of containing China through a small multilateral party.