China Flanker Thread II

[Totoro]

Quick googling is wrong. No Knaapo made Su-30 use PESA radars. Su-30M and its derivatives (Russian M2 or export tailored MKK, MK2, MKV and so on) are simply planes with fairly old tech. They're not to be confused with Irkut made Su-30MKI series, which was basis for other variants such as MKA, MKM and Russian own SM. No array upgrade has ever taken place for MKK/MK2. Some upgrades to the fire control system are likely, as we've seen Chinese weapons integrated with MKK, but the underlying hardware is the same.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

The lack of support for products is something reported by both Chinese and Indian, so that's beyond bureaucracy.

Another thing the Chinese dislike is that the Russians are only willing to provide more advanced technology in smaller doses, hence the Su-30MKK compared to India getting the more advanced Su-30MKI. It was pretty obvious at some point that the Chinese had better technology than what the Russians are willing to sell to them. Both the Su-27SK, J-11, J-11A, Su-30MKK and Su-30MK2 tech are behind that of the J-11B, and for that matter, even the J-10.

On this I disagree, if India only had problems with Russia this claim might be more believable. But insofar India have had problems near every single modern military procurement. Ranging from the Rafale, to the M777 and finally the S-400. The reasons are all near similar, that India demands complete technology transfer, alongside local production and also assurance on the quality of the locally made versions. No nation in its right mind would agree to such terms. On the flip side, Vietnam has been a consistent customer of Russian Arms. And as far as thing seem, it does look like they are getting their money's worth.
Also is it so surprising that Russia would seek to limit what kind of technology that it is willing to sell to China ? During that time, relations between the 2 countries have only just stabilized. And the Chinese at that point have already been active at trying to carve out their own place in the international arms sale. So why should Russia be so keen as to prop up a potential rival that fast without first assessing their intentions ?
But this discussion is veering off topic, so I suggest that we leave it at this and agree to disagree.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

True that most nations exporting military equipment especially high-end technologies like fighters and bombers, would use it to leverage their political interests. I don't think anyway is calling Russia out for that, just stating facts that independence needs to happen for China and it needed to start somewhere, with or without short-term pains, losses, and costs in time. China adapting the flanker platform is no different to China adapting the Mig-21. Completely taking apart Russian versions and kits and evaluating then correcting flaws that were purposefully built into it. China had the ability to create their copies of flankers. Of course they would take that path. Other nations capable of this copying feat have done so in the past. Domesticating the flanker has helped China immensely and if it is/was at the cost of Russian favour, it has been paid back in many other ways and Russia still continues to find favour and support from China on multiple fronts. I don't think Russians can reasonably be bitter over the sino-flanker fiasco. They've even purchased Su-30MK2s and Su-35s (but of course that's all just to continue copying upgraded flankers... totally not for good-will at all). I don't recall brits being vocal about soviets copying the Rolls Royce RB.41.

Russo-Sino cooperation on these fronts would have only slowed China's domestic development down. Maybe at the cost of getting better equipment faster but so many industries would not have enjoyed the financing and encouragement they did without this cooperation and today there are certain areas where China at least matches the technical abilities of Russia and the trends show China's MIC will eventually be more successful than Russia's. Chinese intentions have always been establishing some sort of self reliance. If one day in the future, the Russian nation completely recovers from the damages done on it in the 20th century (and current US actions) and re-establishes its MIC dominance, China will likely return as an investor and customer for Russian products not available from Chinese MIC. At least until the product is reverse-engineered

China has said from the get go that the aim was to eventually raise domestic content in the J11 to 100%.

The Russians had no problem with that when they first signed the contracts because they vastly underestimated Chinese capabilities and thought it would take China so long to absorb the tech that once done, it would become obsolete and China would then need to buy the latest Russian Flanker version developed with Chinese money, and thus create a self-sustaining loop where Russia re-capitalised its defence industry with Chinese money.

But China advanced far quicker than Russia expected, not only cancelling the outstanding Su27 kits order, but also stopped Su30 purchases after delays and underwhelming performance of the MK2. There were no mention of broken contacts when all that happened.

Relations didn’t break down until Russia failed to deliver on its Il76 contract to China after repeated assurances and broken promises.

That resulted in China cancelling the whole contract, and Russia tried to turn the screws on China by stopping AL31 sales for sino Flankers to try and get China to reconsider.

As for the Tu22 or Ka50, there was never any real evidence of strong interest in those types from the China side. It was all Russian sources sayin China wanted them.

Chinese defence co-operation with Russia advanced as far and as deep as it could, because no nation would give you their crown jewles tech, just look at the F35 source code spat between the ‘special’ friends US and UK.

Russia would not have transferred core technologies no matter what (just look at how much India is on the hook as far as Russian support for their joint venture systems). That’s just the reality of the game.

As for Japan making more Eagles, that’s easier said than done seeing how the production line has been closed for decades in Japan. Are the tooling and machinery still even viable even if they have not already been scrapped? And there is also the bigger problem of skilled workers needed to run the line even if the machines are still in working order.

Well lets put it this way, if in the near future China signs a contract with another country for its military equipment and that country not only decide to copy it wholesale without license, and actually improve upon it. I for one will find it extremely hypocritical for China to raise a stink then. But that is another topic entirely. And seeing as Russia itself denies any intention of selling the Tu-22M to China, it would be extremely counterproductive to raise rumors about the interests in the first place on their part.
As for the F-15J. The F-2 production line have not been closed that long ago (2011), plus Japan also produces other military related planes like the Shin Mewa and the P-1. So they still retain a certain level of skilled laborers and machinery.
This is how I see it, but this discussion is really veering off topic so lets leave it at that.

 

[Deino]

Guys ... can we stop discussing F-15J, F-2 production and comparisons between Japanese fighters and PLAAF J-11s?

Thank you.
Deino

 

[Tam]

On this I disagree, if India only had problems with Russia this claim might be more believable. But insofar India have had problems near every single modern military procurement. Ranging from the Rafale, to the M777 and finally the S-400. The reasons are all near similar, that India demands complete technology transfer, alongside local production and also assurance on the quality of the locally made versions. No nation in its right mind would agree to such terms. On the flip side, Vietnam has been a consistent customer of Russian Arms. And as far as thing seem, it does look like they are getting their money's worth.
Also is it so surprising that Russia would seek to limit what kind of technology that it is willing to sell to China ? During that time, relations between the 2 countries have only just stabilized. And the Chinese at that point have already been active at trying to carve out their own place in the international arms sale. So why should Russia be so keen as to prop up a potential rival that fast without first assessing their intentions ?
But this discussion is veering off topic, so I suggest that we leave it at this and agree to disagree.

The fact that Russia did limit the technology they are willing to sell the Chinese is exactly why the Chinese would and should shop elsewhere or create their own. And that paid off big for the Sino-Flankers, which involved areas where the Russians are not any more advanced than the Chinese, in key areas such as composites, digital technologies, even catching up and sweeping past in radar technologies, even down to the quality of manufacture, the design of the avionics, as well as in the advancements of AAMs, PGMs and EW equipment.

Su-30MKK and even the Su-30MK2 was pretty disappointing just to see where the J-11B stood. Russia shouldn't be selling planes with twist cassegrains in a period when their potential opponents are already moving into AESAs.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

The fact that Russia did limit the technology they are willing to sell the Chinese is exactly why the Chinese would and should shop elsewhere or create their own. And that paid off big for the Sino-Flankers, which involved areas where the Russians are not any more advanced than the Chinese, in key areas such as composites, digital technologies, even catching up and sweeping past in radar technologies, even down to the quality of manufacture, the design of the avionics, as well as in the advancements of AAMs, PGMs and EW equipment.

Su-30MKK and even the Su-30MK2 was pretty disappointing just to see where the J-11B stood. Russia shouldn't be selling planes with twist cassegrains in a period when their potential opponents are already moving into AESAs.

The J-11B does not use an AESA radar, that goes to the J-11D which is introduced at a much later date. The J-11B's radar moreover is also comparable to the other variants that Russia offers for its Su-30MKIs and MKMs. And I can understand why Russia is reluctant to include that in the sale after what China did with the Su-27K. What ever suspicions that Russia have before hand however unsubstantiated at the time, were confirmed in this act.
And during the time when the Su-30MKK contract was sign. AESA radars aren't widespread yet, the earliest one. Only Japan and the USA are starting to gradually introduce AESA radars to a few of their fighters at the time. And for export fighters, many nations would not have been able to purchase any AESA radar equipped fighters in significant numbers, the ones that can are already established US customers to begin with anyway.
That China eventually figure AESA radars out themselves is laudable, but it is to be pointed out that they have save significant effort and time adapting the Su-27 airframe to suit their purpose, even if done without permission.

 

[ougoah]

Well lets put it this way, if in the near future China signs a contract with another country for its military equipment and that country not only decide to copy it wholesale without license, and actually improve upon it. I for one will find it extremely hypocritical for China to raise a stink then. But that is another topic entirely. And seeing as Russia itself denies any intention of selling the Tu-22M to China, it would be extremely counterproductive to raise rumors about the interests in the first place on their part.
As for the F-15J. The F-2 production line have not been closed that long ago (2011), plus Japan also produces other military related planes like the Shin Mewa and the P-1. So they still retain a certain level of skilled laborers and machinery.
This is how I see it, but this discussion is really veering off topic so lets leave it at that.

Correct it would be hypocritical of China. BUT this hasn't happened and probably won't happen for a very long time. AND wouldn't it also be hypocritical of the other nation to copy if they were once copied and complained about how it was unethical etc. They should also refrain from copying if that is what they believe in. My money is on, if Chinese technology is one day copied by USA/ Russia/ technologically advanced nation which China once copied from, these people will not care they are copying and committing the same "crime" they believe copying to be. While Chinese will consider it flattering and still manage to stay in the lead until they grow complacent and the cycle repeats. Moral of the story is, Chinese consider copying others as an act of flattery and being copied as an acknowledgement of superiority (don't misunderstand I mean superior practice/ technology/ work ethics/ culture.... not what some might incorrectly assume). Chinese will not kick up a serious fuss. They may make jokes about how they thought copying was wrong and shows an entire nation of people are incapable of creativity and innovation and all that rubbish some idiots like to keep saying despite historical evidence showing otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Correct it would be hypocritical of China. BUT this hasn't happened and probably won't happen for a very long time. AND wouldn't it also be hypocritical of the other nation to copy if they were once copied and complained about how it was unethical etc. They should also refrain from copying if that is what they believe in. My money is on, if Chinese technology is one day copied by USA/ Russia/ technologically advanced nation which China once copied from, these people will not care they are copying and committing the same "crime" they believe copying to be. While Chinese will consider it flattering and still manage to stay in the lead until they grow complacent and the cycle repeats. Moral of the story is, Chinese consider copying others as an act of flattery and being copied as an acknowledgement of superiority (don't misunderstand I mean superior practice/ technology/ work ethics/ culture.... not what some might incorrectly assume). Chinese will not kick up a serious fuss. They may make jokes about how they thought copying was wrong and shows an entire nation of people are incapable of creativity and innovation and all that rubbish some idiots like to keep saying despite historical evidence showing otherwise.

Well if money is of concern I expect that to take an entirely different tune altogether.............

 

[ougoah]

The J-11B does not use an AESA radar, that goes to the J-11D which is introduced at a much later date. The J-11B's radar moreover is also comparable to the other variants that Russia offers for its Su-30MKIs and MKMs. And I can understand why Russia is reluctant to include that in the sale after what China did with the Su-27K. What ever suspicious that Russia have before hand however unsubstantiated at the time, were confirmed in this act.
And during the time when the Su-30MKK contract was sign. AESA radars aren't widespread yet, the earliest one. Only Japan and the USA are starting to gradually introduce AESA radars to a few of their fighters at the time. And for export fighters, many nations would not have been able to purchase any AESA radar equipped fighters in significant numbers, the ones that can are already established US customers to begin with anyway.
That China eventually figure AESA radars out themselves is laudable, but it is to be pointed out that they have save significant effort and time adapting the Su-27 airframe to suit their purpose, even if done without permission.

Not sure what you mean when you say Russia was reluctant. Russia was promoting two separate PESA radars for both MKK upgrade and MK2 and/or MK2 upgrade. One from Tik, other from Phaz I believe. But quick googling is often wrong so this may not be accurate. Still there seems to be convincing evidence to suggest that China rejected all Russian offers of PESA radars except "Panda".

If big money is involved, of course you are right. I expect certain actions will be taken unless payments in other forms are gained. China has not short changed Russia in any way. They've even officially settled all previous disputes on border issues with China ceding their claims. I know it's easy to think well China had no right anyway, but border disputes are always a two way street and both parties have equal right to a claim. Let's not forget the decades of economic support and political alliance.

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Not sure what you mean when you say Russia was reluctant. Russia was promoting two separate PESA radars for both MKK upgrade and MK2 and/or MK2 upgrade. One from Tik, other from Phaz I believe. But quick googling is often wrong so this may not be accurate. Still there seems to be convincing evidence to suggest that China rejected all Russian offers of PESA radars except "Panda".

If big money is involved, of course you are right. I expect certain actions will be taken unless payments in other forms are gained. China has not short changed Russia in any way. They've even officially settled all previous disputes on border issues with China ceding their claims. I know it's easy to think well China had no right anyway, but border disputes are always a two way street and both parties have equal right to a claim. Let's not forget the decades of economic support and political alliance.

You are right, Russia does seem to offer them another advanced radar. But China rejects it on the basis that installing it would mean putting on canards on the MKK to retain its previous flight capacity. The fault can't be placed on Russia for that one, the MKK was designed to Chinese specifications at the time.
If there is any short charging on Russia it would be on all those Su-27 air frames and its derivatives that China has produced, without a doubt there was a pressing need for China to have a long range heavy fighter but it would be very unlikely that Russia would have prevented any future licensed production so long as they were properly compensated at the time.That would be the exact conundrum that China will face if another nation decides to do the same onto them.
And as far as Russia is concerned, its border disputes with China are a completely different matter from military sales.
P.S : When I said "act" I was referring to China copying the Su-27K. If they haven't, Russia would have been more forthcoming on offering them better avionics for the Su-30MKK like the Bars at the start.