China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

Discussion in 'Strategic Defense' started by peace_lover, Nov 4, 2005.

  1. Xsizor
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    Xsizor Junior Member
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    • China hasn't admitted to any numbers regarding its nuclear warheads. 300 to 400 is the figure given by the FAS (Federation of American Scientists) calculating the amount of Enriched U-235 and Pu-239 with China. They assume that (with the backing of intelligence reports, hopefully) China has stopped production of these enriched fissile materials.
    • As for DF-31AG and DF-41 :
    1. The range of DF-41 is longer than DF-31AG.
    2. DF-41 has no submarine Launched twin (as of now) but DF-31 is coupled with JL-2. There are reports of improvements in SLBM ( JL-2B? ) The DF-31AG could reflect these improvements but still be limited by the size constraints of SLBM.
    3. The warhead miniaturization, decoy technology, evasive capabilities are continuously being improved. DF-41 could be cramming in the better tech.
    4. The size of DF-41. It is larger than DF-31AG.
     
  2. Broccoli
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    Broccoli Junior Member

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    #3192 Broccoli, Oct 21, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  3. weig2000
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    weig2000 Junior Member

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    DF-31 is the baseline version, with a range of 8,000km
    DF-31A is the extended range version, at 11,000km
    DF-31AG is the improved version of DF-31A, which can be launched anywhere with short-time preparation. DF-31 & DF-31A are mobile but can only be launched at fixed launch locations
    DF-41, compared with the DF-31's, has longer range (>13,000km) and is MIRV.
     
  4. shanlung
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    shanlung New Member
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    QUOTE="styx, post: 575209, member: 369"]quick question: why China is parallel developing two mobile icbm (df-31ag and df-41) even if it has a very tiny nuclear arsenal (about 300 warheads in total)?[/QUOTE]

    This extract below might be useful as part of the answer that you want.



    From

    Quora User's answer to Instead of actually fighting the Chinese if they invade Taiwan why doesn't the United States just nuke them if China invades Taiwan?


    When China was still almost in stone age condition in 1960s, China still developed the Hydrogen Bomb 3.3 Mtons just 32 months in June 1967 after China first fission bomb. China was using teams of Chinese working away at abacus as they had no computers or even electronic calculators then.

    We all know China is a lot more advanced since the mid 60s.

    US intelligence projection made late in the 1960s that China would have 435 nuclear weapons by 1973.
    Karber’s report mentioned that “PRC data in 1995 gave the figure at 2,350.”

    We all know China is a lot more advanced since 1995.

    Why You Should Fear China's Nuclear Weapons


    Underground Great Wall of China - Wikipedia

    And remember the DF5s and DF31AG as well. About 100 or more of them, mirving 10 nukes or more.
    China has at least three brigades of DF-5 missiles. Assuming all three brigades have been modernized, that's 360 thermonuclear warheads with a half-megaton on each warhead.
    3 brigades DF-5B ICBM x 12 missiles per brigade x 10 MIRVs per missile = 360 thermonuclear warheads carried on DF-5B ICBMs



    [​IMG]

    DF-5B got throw weight of 5,000 kgs
    In 2017, China successfully completed tests of DF-5C. Presumably with greater throw weight and greater accuracy in targetting.

    7 brigades DF-31A ICBM (since 2007 introduction and adding one brigade per year) x 12 missiles per brigade x 3 MIRVs = 252 thermonuclear warheads carried on DF-31A ICBMs (assuming NO RELOAD missile per TEL; if you assume ONE reload missile per TEL then you double the number of warheads to 504 thermonuclear warheads).

    Since then, China tested and got operational DF31AG and DF31B. Obviously able to throw more warheads than the DF31A. The DF31s are solid fuel and can fire within 3 to 5 minutes.

    And the H-6K bombers. H-6K can carry up to six YJ-12 and 6-7 ALCMs; and air launched missiles (CH-AS-X-13)
    As at 2015, there are 15 numbers of H-6Ks, and 150 numbers of assorted H-6s.
    Using just H-6Ks, there will be need for 15X10 , or 150 thermonuclear bombs.
    2015 is 5 years ago. You can be sure there will be even more numbers of H-6K, and even more advanced bombers being build by China.

    DF-41 - Wikipedia

    The Dong Feng 41 (CSS-X-10) is a road- and rail-mobile intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). The DF-41 completed all testing stages and deployed in the People’s Republic of China (PRC) since 2017. It is estimated to have an operational range of 12,000 to 15,000 km, which would make it the longest range missile in operation. It will likely have a top speed of Mach 25 and will be capable of delivering up to 10 MIRVed warheads. Throw weight of DF-41 is 2,500 kg.

    The DF-41 is a three-stage solid-fueled intercontinental ballistic missile reported to have a maximum range of up to 15,000 kilometers (more than 9320 miles) and a top speed of Mach 25 (19,030 mph). It is said to be capable of carrying up to 10 multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle (MIRVs). Its launch preparation time is estimated to be between 3 to 5 minutes.

    This would make the DF-41 the world's longest range missile, surpassing the range of the US LGM-30 Minuteman which has a reported range of 13,000 km. Throw weight of LGM-30 is only 1000kg or just 3 numbers of 170kton nukes. USA UGM-133 Trident II throw weight is only 2,800 kg.



    Four brigades of DF-41 ICBMs (Heilongjiang, Henan, Xinjiang, and Tibet Provinces) with one re-load per DF-41 TEL yields 96 total DF-41 ICBMs.
    How many brigades of DF-41 since 2017 number of 4 brigades?
    6 Brigades or 8 Brigades?

    [​IMG]

    Reported DF-41 Deployment: China 'Responding to US Missile Defense in Asia'
    Expert: DF-41 among most advanced missiles in the world


    If China got only 260 thermonukes like what everyone is saying and hoping, the surplus warheads will be delivering dim sum and tea bags and cleaned pressed laundry from Chinese laundrymen.

    Please remember DF-41 got a very big brother coming up as well in case you think DF-41 not worthy enough to deliver dim sum and tea bags and cleaned laundry.
    Russia’s RS-28 “Sarmat” ten-ton payload, rated as the most dangerous ICBM . Reportedly it may carry up to fifteen 350 kiloton warheads, or up to twenty-four of the new “Avangard” nuclear-armed Hypersonic Glide Vehicle (HGV) warheads. Sarmat will be dwarfed by Chinese new missile with even larger twenty-ton payload. That will be solid-fuel space-launch vehicle (SLV), and could form the basis for what might become the world’s largest “mobile” ICBM.

    The Next China Military Threat: The World's Biggest Mobile ICBM?


    SSBNs
    Type 094 Jin Class SSBN


    Currently 6 of type 094 but projected to be 8 in years to come.
    Carrying 12 numbers of JL-2, mirving 3–4 thermonuclear warheads.
    Or 288 nuclear warheads

    Type 096 Tang Class SSBN
    This is similar to Ohio Class




    Carrying 24 JL-3 missiles , each mirving 5–7 warheads.
    Currently, 6 numbers of 096 SSBNs are being build simultaneously.
    Using 6x24x5, we have 720 thermonuclear warheads.

    Or at least 1000 nukes can be delivered by China.
    Or the warheads delivered are empty. Or used to deliver dim sums, General Tso chicken, wulung tea bags and cleaned laundry by Chink laundrymen, express delivery.

    If China is ever turned into a nuclear wasteland, those that send nukes into China will be nuked into glowing and molten multicolored wasteland.

    China promised never to use the first nuke. But if just one nuke land on China or her forces, ALL THE USA BASES FROM EUROPE, DIEGO GARCIA , SINGAPORE . JAPAN AND USA HERSELF WILL BE SEAS AND LAKES OF MOLTEN MULTI COLOR GLASS.
    None of the USA carriers will be spared. The carriers will be taken out with nukes even if the carriers hide in Frisco Bay or in the Atlantic Ocean or any other ocean.

    And as demonstrated so clearly in KSA a few days ago, the Aegis and Patriot systems defending Saudi a joke as the Aegis and Patriot cannot even detect a few sub Mach cruise missiles not to talk of taking them down. Even to now, no one sure where those came from and who flown them. Despite overlapping coverage of those Patriot and Aegis systems.
    New sales pitch? US makes the world’s ‘finest’ anti-air systems, but sometimes they just don’t work, Pompeo explains
    Saudi air defenses like Patriot & Aegis don’t match their advertised properties, unfit for real combat – Russian Army (MAP)
    [​IMG]


    How will the Patriot systems in USA defend against ICBMs coming in at speed of Mach 25 when they cannot even detect missiles at sub Mach or even know where the missiles came from despite overlapping coverage?

    Allies of the country that nuke China will not go unpunished as well. Whether they could not stop USA or do not want to stop USA or USA do not want to listen to them will be irrelevant to China.
    A nuked China will be very very weak. And China recalled the days where the British and French and Japan and USA came to carve her up when China was weak.
    China will not allow that to happen again. China will ensure those countries will be weaker than a nuked China, or exist only in name after a nuked China

    So please let peace prevail and it is irrelevant whether you think China only got 260 nukes
    The lucky ones will be those that die in the first micro second.
    Those still alive a year later will wish they gone at the very beginning.

    And why the war fought or even started, no one will give a flying fuck as to the reasons.

    [​IMG]



    Even so, China never ever threatened to use nukes. Other than if nuke used on China, China will retaliate and use nukes as well.

    So please be peaceful and respectful and more courtesy, and no more phony FONOPs and playing games of who will blink with China with phony FONOPs. Do not play with fire regarding Taiwan. AND DO NOT THREATEN TO NUKE CHINA.
     
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  5. Broccoli
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    Broccoli Junior Member

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    As far I know none in here has capality launch nukes at China so i'm not sure what is meaning of this parr? Ubernationalist blowhardism on full display.
     
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  6. Josh Luo
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    Josh Luo Junior Member
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    [​IMG]
    Question 1: Since the W88 warhead weights 360kg, but only has a yield of 475 kilotons, while the 250 kg warheads of the DF-41 have a yield of 650 kilotons, I wonder if the DF-41 warheads could be considered a "superior" and more efficient design? Also, the 165kg warhead of the DF-41 has a yield of 150 kilotons, which is bigger than the 165kg W76 warhead's yield of 100 kilotons. Still the image above could be false, so I reserve my judgements.

    Question 2: If the image above shows info that are true, I wonder how the Chinese were able to fit 650 kilotons of explosive power into a 250 kg warhead when the W88 weights 360kg. Clearly the Chinese warheads are more efficient and deadly than American late 1980s designs if the image above shows real info.
     
  7. shanlung
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    shanlung New Member
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    I wonder if the Chinese thermonuclear bomb done to the Yu-Min configuration got anything to do with the different yield as against USA thermonukes done to Ulam Teller configuration.
    .
    And that apparently the Yu-Min required a lot less maintenance than that of the Ulam Teller.

    I tried but cannot find anything on the Yu-Min, unlike the ton of literature on the Ulam Teller.
    Perhaps some folks here might guide me to Yu-Min configuration
     
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  8. Broccoli
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    Broccoli Junior Member

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    If we assume that picture is true then there are multiple options.

    1. W88 was designed in 1970s but Americans also designed W87 what weights around 250kg while having yield up to 500kt. W89 (last US design) was 150kg and had 200kt or higher yield.

    2. As pointed above W88 is from 1970s so good two decades later than DF-41 warheads. Should be compared with W87 & W89.

    Personally I think W62/68 series is most interesting as it seems to be more "hush hush" than other warheads US had on it's arsenal... there are more public info info about W88/87 than W62/68
     
    #3198 Broccoli, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  9. styx
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    styx Junior Member
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    DF-5B_05.jpg df-5_03.jpg why df-5 and in general all the chinese liquid propellant rockets has that strange "open" "grid" interstage? Very ugly to see.
     
    #3199 styx, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  10. Josh Luo
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    Josh Luo Junior Member
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    I thought the heavier W87-1 (newer model) has a yield of up to 475 kilotons (close enough to 500 kilotons), like the W88? Still, that is still distance away from DF-41 250 kg warhead's 650 kilotons. Anyway 100 kilotons would be enough to level a city in modern nuclear war.
     
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