Zheng He (1371-1433), the Chinese Muslim Admiral

ahho

Junior Member
Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

and also most native indian had a saying when the european arrived (i am not too exact on what they said but context is similar) "those who came will leave"
this context said by natives made many scientist to believe that there was contact before the european came
 

Kampfwagen

Junior Member
Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

That's likely to mean anything. Could mean forigeners, could mean other tribes from parts of America.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

I think that commmon sense would dictate that in a thousands of years of history there would be at least some contact from Old World to new before Columbus, considering how many sea faring cultures there are and the shape of ocean currents. The Canary Islands in the Atlantic were inhabited by a population of tribes called the Guanches that were not African, but rather had European features but Stone Age technology and spoke no language even remotely similar to European languages at the time of Spanish colonization in the 1400s. This proves that the Phonecians or possibly the Cartheginians landed there and colonized them. It is also believed that there were trading colonies of Romans in Indian port cities, so it is very possible that people made it to the New World from the Old too.

Here is the URL of the wikipedia list of articles about pre-columbian oceanic contact.

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Deleted member 675

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Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

Finn, here's my previous post again - no point writing a new one.

Finn McCool said:
Has anyone read the book 1421: The Year China discovered America? It presents quite a bit of convincing evidence that the treasure fleets continued around the world and charted the West Coast of Africa, the Carribean, South Africa and the Pacific and circumnavigated the globe before returning home. I personally consider it to be a very real possibility.

Then I'm afraid, Finn, you're a bit naive in terms of historical issues - no offence. More knowledgable academics have repeatedly given it a big thumbs down. One thing that you should realise is that as far as I can remember, to date no real historian (i.e. an academic with qualifications and perhaps a position at a university) has actually backed his claims in public. He gets lots of other "experts" - but sadly they all operate in other areas of expertise. It's a bit like when he goes to ask someone that does crossword puzzles for advice on a source, rather than a cryptologist.

Put it like this - Jung Chang's book on Mao has been better received by historians than Menzies.

Plenty of professional sites to read here:

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(This source is very interesting, because it's a refutation by a naval officer. According to his
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, Menzies completely failed to counter her husband's arguments when he went to see Menzies.)

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"Ultimately, however, Menzies's presentation in 1421 is much like that delivered at the United Nations recently by Secretary of State Powell regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction: convincing only to true believers and leaving others at best, in the words of the old hymn, "almost persuaded."

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"This is not just a story about ones man’s wild theory. It is a parable of modern popular culture, a tale about intellectual chutzpah and about a publishing industry that knows how to extract profit from a public which wants to thumb its nose at the dry though documented history taught at school."
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

I can't say that I believe a lot of what is written in the book. That the Chinese established colonies in the New World years before the Europeans got there is too fantastic to be believed. But I think that it is quite possible that a Chinese fleet made it up the coast of Africa, possibly over to South America and maybe even made it back across the Pacfic to China. But I don't think that they made it to the North Pole and established contact with the Incas, reached the Carribean and Australia and some of the other more extreme things Menzies claims.

Another thing-of all the members at SDF I think that I would be one of the last ones to be "naive" about history. I use more historical examples to support my arguements than anyone else here on SDF, and I've studied and enjoyed history all my life.
 
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Deleted member 675

Guest
Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

Finn McCool said:
Another thing-of all the members at SDF I think that I would be one of the last ones to be "naive" about history. I use more historical examples to support my arguements than anyone else here on SDF, and I've studied and enjoyed history all my life.

You said "a very real possibility" in the post I quoted, which I felt was far too generous (though I didn't meant to be too personal). I believe Chinese traders reached Africa and visited the Middle East, but I don't believe in the rest.

As someone who takes historical research very seriously, I have to acknowledge the overwhelming amount of criticism levelled at Menzies (criticism which he continuously fails to counter).
 
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Gaginang

New Member
i am the descendent of teochew tribe of southern china (also called gaginag) we are famous for sea faring, as mention in the book of 1421, of the mountain of in south american name (arkon ga oui) meaning my great father teaching me.

i find this fascinating to have these peoples name their mountain in my language, i doubt it would be coincident. but the more i read about my history i find it plausable to believe my peoples properly got all the way to south america. since in the old days, our peoples travel by boat for years before comming back home. and many of our peoples settles around south east asia and in australia before european even got there.

i don't see why the chinese can't travelled and settle in south american and any other place around the world, since we knew how to use the compass, read the stars, knew how to sail up wind.

plus these days history is all white washed. if you want to know more about history learn some indian, the chinese and arab because they are the best sea farer way way way long before left their caves.

ps there is no reneson, they just learn it from the asian.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Jimbologist said:
Have you even read 1421: The Year China discovered the World?

If he has, that would be even more reason to pour cold water on the theory. Menzies sounds convincing to those that:

a) Want to believe.
b) Have no awareness of poorly written history.

Re-read my post #64 and read the articles mentioned.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Gaginang said:
i don't see why the chinese can't travelled and settle in south american and any other place around the world, since we knew how to use the compass, read the stars, knew how to sail up wind.

It's isn't that it was impossible it's that Gavin Menzies does a very, very bad job at making it convincing to people that understand historical matters.

If you want to say something is the case you have to provide a lot of evidence to say so, especially if it is a wide-ranging claim. You can't just put forward a vaguely plausible theory and then demand people prove you're wrong (as if you can prove a negative anyway).
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Well, the people in Galapagos Islands have been genetically, linguistically, and culturally linked to the Pacific Austronesian peoples, which originally came from the non-Han aboringinal tribes in Southern China before they began a long sea ward migration. We're talking of the ethnic branch of people that spawned Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos, Maori, Hawaiians, Micronesians, who at one point of time, developed uncanny navigation skills based on observing star patterns, and developed small fast sailing vessels using double hulled catamaran designs.
 
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