Zheng Chenggong - Koxinga

Lezt

Junior Member
You're mixing up "China" as a political entity, and "Chinese" as a cultural concept.

I agree that both Song and Ming "suffered" more than Qing from "foreign aggression", as both dynasties were actually conquered by foreign powers, whereas the Qing dynasty was overthrown by its own people. This is because "China" as a political entity, has changed vastly throughout its history. Were the Mongols under Genghis Khan Chinese? No, obviously not, as China was the Song Dynasty at the time. However, the Yuan under Kublai Khan is undoubtedly Chinese.

The dynasty mantra for China goes like this: "Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing" (唐宋元明清). Note that this includes the "foreign" dynasties of both Yuan and Qing, but do not include other "foreign" dynasties that existed at the same time as a "Chinese" dynasty and occupying a territory belonging to modern PRC: the Jin (金), for example, whose capital was in the vicinity of modern-day Beijing.

However, if we had to take one largely constant element of "Chineseness", it would have to be the Chinese culture. Much as Jews are defined throughout history by their culture and religion, so are the Chinese truly defined by their culture.

I don't think I have mixed up Chinese as a cultural identity and Chinese as a Nation.

Chinese as a nation is only retrospectively applied as I am sure that a Tang citizen will consider himself a Tang citizen instead of Chinese.

And Chinese history contains many foreign Dynasties; which at different points were considered legit or not.

五胡十六國
遼 (907-1125)
西夏 (1038-1227)
金 (1115-1234)
and of course the Yuan and Qing

I have always found the mantra: 唐宋元明清 to be simplistic. 遼 obviously coexisted with 宋 and was only added by the 元 afterwards. It was never really that much of a straight line.

This is also an issue with Korea and Japan, both of which at points felt that they were the successors of the "Tang" culture; or to be more politically correct, what they felt were the essence of "Chinese" culture.

To simply put, does different branches of a tree, mean that they are the same? Or does the different decedents of the original, have the right or claiming to be the original?
 

solarz

Brigadier
I don't think I have mixed up Chinese as a cultural identity and Chinese as a Nation.

Chinese as a nation is only retrospectively applied as I am sure that a Tang citizen will consider himself a Tang citizen instead of Chinese.

And Chinese history contains many foreign Dynasties; which at different points were considered legit or not.

五胡十六國
遼 (907-1125)
西夏 (1038-1227)
金 (1115-1234)
and of course the Yuan and Qing

I have always found the mantra: 唐宋元明清 to be simplistic. 遼 obviously coexisted with 宋 and was only added by the 元 afterwards. It was never really that much of a straight line.

This is also an issue with Korea and Japan, both of which at points felt that they were the successors of the "Tang" culture; or to be more politically correct, what they felt were the essence of "Chinese" culture.

To simply put, does different branches of a tree, mean that they are the same? Or does the different decedents of the original, have the right or claiming to be the original?

Well the original point was whether there was a difference between the Mongol invasion and the Japanese invasion.

I would say that to someone who lived in the final years of the Southern Song dynasty, there would be no difference between the invaders. However, to modern Chinese, yes there is a world of difference.

Yes, it's a question of perception, but don't underestimate it just because it's perception. Generations of warfare have been fought over differences in perception. In the end, what human beings do is all determined by their perception. History itself, in trying to draw inferences, is entirely a matter of perception.
 

no_name

Colonel
On the other hand, people on america soil viewed themselves as americans the day they took up arms against the british.

People in Greece still relates themselves to the ancient Greece.

But people in UK have pretty much dropped their Norman identifications.

So it partly comes down to what the popular identity is.
 
On the other hand, people on america soil viewed themselves as americans the day they took up arms against the british.

People in Greece still relates themselves to the ancient Greece.

But people in UK have pretty much dropped their Norman identifications.

So it partly comes down to what the popular identity is.

This is correct. This is also what might be known as national identity.

---------- Post added at 06:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 AM ----------

Well the original point was whether there was a difference between the Mongol invasion and the Japanese invasion.

I would say that to someone who lived in the final years of the Southern Song dynasty, there would be no difference between the invaders. However, to modern Chinese, yes there is a world of difference.

Yes, it's a question of perception, but don't underestimate it just because it's perception. Generations of warfare have been fought over differences in perception. In the end, what human beings do is all determined by their perception. History itself, in trying to draw inferences, is entirely a matter of perception.

Very very well said. It is also important to utilize this attitude because the dangers of completely accepting oneself as solely particular identity can easily lead to radicalization.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Thank you, Sampan Viking. This sets up a few thought lines with me.
Only the Eastern end of the silk road was controlled by the Chinese. Most of the work was done by the nomads living in the Eurasian steppes.
That reminds me of a very good book by a Soviet writer about nomads, which I read some thirty years ago in a German translation. The point that is relevant here is that the nomads of the Eurasian steppes were often military superior to the settled peoples to the South and West of the steppes. They traded with these peoples but plundered or even conquered them when the opportunity offered. The Great Wall was at most times effective in protecting China. I have read somewhere that from the third century AD the Iranians introduced alfalfa to feed their war horses and that they organised something similar to European feodalism to have armored horsemen to keep out the Huns which would then inspire those Huns to attack and plunder the Roman Empire rather than Iran. When the pest came in the 14th century, just after the silk trade had also transmitted the design of cannon, Europe might have lost a third of the population but the the steppe peoples might have lost 90%. Demographic disaster and firearms in the hands of the Russians destroyed the military superiority of the nomads.
The changed demography also would have made the caravan trade much more expensive and would be an added reason, perhaps even the main reason, for Europeans to develop the sea trade to Asia.
The interview stresses that the Chinese ships were less able to sail on the wind than European ones. But later Chinese vessels were better. See for instance Tales of the Fish Patrol by Jack London in which he writes about his experience in working for the fishery patrol in the Bay of San Francisco about a century ago when people of different extraction used fishing vessels of the design from their homelands, as Greece and China and others. He said that the Chinese vessels sailed much better. There is also the anecdote of the Australian who in the middle of the 19th century bought a junk in Hong Kong and sailed it with a Chinese master to Sidney. The junk sailed beautifully until the master went home. The Australian was not able to sail her effectively. When the master was persuaded to come back a few years later she again sailed perfectly.
The European have been a belligerent lot at least since the time of the Vikings and they developed the quality of the guns more than the Chinese did, but recovered guns from the Armada were still pretty miserable by the standards of a hundred years later. So I would think the Dutch guns in this war are likely to have been far from perfect. Just a point that will have to be investigated.

A very different point. The ancestors of Polynesians departed from China about five thousand years ago and reached Hawaii, New Zealand and Madagascar about a thousand years ago. So seafaring over long distances is not unknown in the area. But China was naturally militarily most engaged in protecting itself against the nomads.

I think we are really at the beginning of a long rewriting of the history of the world.

Thank you Delft and you must forgive me if I seem to try to move aspects of this thread from the historical to the present and future, but I believe the underlying forces of the story are as strong today as they were in the 17th C.

I return to the core question of this and perhaps of a large part of Geopolitics past and present by asking:

Is the most important single activity on this planet the control of the method by which goods are transported from one side of the Eurasian/African Landmass to the other?

I certainly have come to the conclusion that it does and that the discovery and rise of the new world has done little to reduce that importance.

For most of history, the land routes dominated the trade and the trade routes were controlled by the Chinese Empire. It is true that Chinese soldiers did not patrol its entire length, but this was unnecessary for China was the central hub around which the whole mechanism revolved.
In the Far East, goods came to China from the SE Asian peninsular and the Spice Islands and from there were transported westwards. China was also a major sale destination for goods heading Eastwards from the West. Chinese soldiers may not have patrolled the entire Silk Route, but they did not need to as the value of the wealth successfully flowing provided a powerful incentive to all those through who's territory it passed, to ensure that the flow was assisted and not impeded.
I would go further and suggest that there is a direct correlation between disruption to the Silk Rd and both Dynastic turmoil in China and Chaos/Dark Ages in Europe.

It is also my proposal that it was partly in response to a time of collapse and decline in the late Mediaeval that prompted European mariners to seek the Orient directly by sea (which was after all what Columbus and other explorers all set out to do).

Up to that point, land was the only realistic option and while some goods headed West from East Asia across the Indian Ocean, the volumes were relatively small and only intended for local consumption, with only crumbs from the trade crossing the Mediterranean basin.
Sea Voyages were more risky than land and limited in their scope. Most ships were incapable of physically surviving the journey around Africa to reach Western Europe, further you can cut a deal with a bandit, but the weather is deaf to all entreaties.

Europe however set itself on that course and while it took several centuries to perfect, did refine it navel technology to the point where it ships could undertake the physical rigours of the journey and possess sufficient superior fire power to overcome the navies of the Moors, Turks and other None European powers who had to passed en-route.

Did Chinese ships have the legs of their European rivals, even if fire power and all other things were equal? I suspect that they did not, because such features were the product of very specific design and China clearly had little interest in sustaining such capability. This means that such design features were not incorporated into active ship building even if the technology was known.

The ATOL article clearly reports a significant superiority between Western and Oriental vessels and I think this should be accepted. Whether this was purely design or also a product of seamanship, tactics and even strategy is open to question, but whichever way you look at it, it reveals a failure of critical thinking and or effective response from the Chinese leadership.

What Europeans did when they arrived was two fold.

1) They sailed directly too and seized control of the primary spice Islands, thus taking possession of the raw commodities of trade themselves. This may not have been overall serious for China, had the Europeans still needed to transport their produce to China for land based transit to Europe. This was not the case though as

2) The Europeans were able to take this products directly to market in these same ships by sea.

In short the lasting achievement of Europe was to head East and for the first time ever, take physical control of the entire trade route from plantation to market stall and do so in a way that cut China out of the deal completely. They were able to do it because the ships were reliable, able to out gun any blocking power and able to make the journey in a manner ever closer and closer to becoming scheduled.

With so much value removed from the silk route, local chieftains in Central Asia will have had more to gain from looting what little was left (while it was still there) rather than protect it and created a vicious circle on land that quickly killed what little trade was left and turning other Eastern traders to seek the ships and protection of Europe.

China for whatever reason seemed unable or unwilling to respond.

Europe boomed and China fell into economic collapse.

This is situation that exists today with power passing from the Dutch to the British and currently with the Americans.

I now invite you to examine current Chinese policy from the strategic viewpoint of its desire to re-establishing the land routes and to securing access to the primary trade goods of the modern age for transmission along it.
You may especially wish to consider the implications of the South China Seas dispute in this light.
You may wish also wish to consider the implications of growing security in Central Asia, why others may wish to destabilise it and the effect of the growing piracy problems in the Indian Ocean.
 

no_name

Colonel
I think it was not required to go around African to reach the Mediterranean sea, one can go through the red sea and that is what arab traders did.

During Southern Song at one time the taxes from maritime trades accounted for 20% of all imperial revenues. This is because they cannot trade over land route and they need all financial help they can get in their struggles against mongol yuan.

Ship remains have been found from southern song that were larger than what Colombus and Magellan had to make do with.
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Lezt

Junior Member
Thank you Delft and you must forgive me if I seem to try to move aspects of this thread from the historical to the present and future, but I believe the underlying forces of the story are as strong today as they were in the 17th C.




I return to the core question of this and perhaps of a large part of Geopolitics past and present by asking:




Is the most important single activity on this planet the control of the method by which goods are transported from one side of the Eurasian/African Landmass to the other?




I certainly have come to the conclusion that it does and that the discovery and rise of the new world has done little to reduce that importance.




For most of history, the land routes dominated the trade and the trade routes were controlled by the Chinese Empire. It is true that Chinese soldiers did not patrol its entire length, but this was unnecessary for China was the central hub around which the whole mechanism revolved.*
In the Far East, goods came to China from the SE Asian peninsular and the Spice Islands and from there were transported westwards. China was also a major sale destination for goods heading Eastwards from the West. Chinese soldiers may not have patrolled the entire Silk Route, but they did not need to as the value of the wealth successfully flowing provided a powerful incentive to all those through who's territory it passed, to ensure that the flow was assisted and not impeded.
I would go further and suggest that there is a direct correlation between disruption to the Silk Rd and both Dynastic turmoil in China and Chaos/Dark Ages in Europe.




It is also my proposal that it was partly in response to a time of collapse and decline in the late Mediaeval that prompted European mariners to seek the Orient directly by sea (which was after all what Columbus and other explorers all set out to do).




Up to that point, land was the only realistic option and while some goods headed West from East Asia across the Indian Ocean, the volumes were relatively small and only intended for local consumption, with only crumbs from the trade crossing the Mediterranean basin.*
Sea Voyages were more risky than land and limited in their scope. Most ships were incapable of physically surviving the journey around Africa to reach Western Europe, further you can cut a deal with a bandit, but the weather is deaf to all entreaties.




Europe however set itself on that course and while it took several centuries to perfect, did refine it navel technology to the point where it ships could undertake the physical rigours of the journey and possess sufficient superior fire power to overcome the navies of the Moors, Turks and other None European powers who had to passed en-route.*




Did Chinese ships have the legs of their European rivals, even if fire power and all other things were equal? I suspect that they did not, because such features were the product of very specific design and China clearly had little interest in sustaining such capability. This means that such design features were not incorporated into active ship building even if the technology was known.*




The ATOL article clearly reports a significant superiority between Western and Oriental vessels and I think this should be accepted. Whether this was purely design or also a product of seamanship, tactics and even strategy is open to question, but whichever way you look at it, it reveals a failure of critical thinking and or effective response from the Chinese leadership.




What Europeans did when they arrived was two fold.




1) They sailed directly too and seized control of the primary spice Islands, thus taking possession of the raw commodities of trade themselves. This may not have been overall serious for China, had the Europeans still needed to transport their produce to China for land based transit to Europe. This was not the case though as




2) The Europeans were able to take this products directly to market in these same ships by sea.




In short the lasting achievement of Europe was to head East and for the first time ever, take physical control of the entire trade route from plantation to market stall and do so in a way that cut China out of the deal completely. They were able to do it because the ships were reliable, able to out gun any blocking power and able to make the journey in a manner ever closer and closer to becoming scheduled.*
*
With so much value removed from the silk route, local chieftains in Central Asia will have had more to gain from looting what little was left (while it was still there) rather than protect it and created a vicious circle on land that quickly killed what little trade was left and turning other Eastern traders to seek the ships and protection of Europe.*




China for whatever reason seemed unable or unwilling to respond.




Europe boomed and China fell into economic collapse.




This is situation that exists today with power passing from the Dutch to the British and currently with the Americans.




I now invite you to examine current Chinese policy from the strategic viewpoint of its desire to re-establishing the land routes and to securing access to the primary trade goods of the modern age for transmission along it.*
You may especially wish to consider the implications of the South China Seas dispute in this light.
You may wish also wish to consider the implications of growing security in Central Asia, why others may wish to destabilise it and the effect of the growing piracy problems in the Indian Ocean.




Thank you for an interesting topic, I think there are much more to trade routes. China have been running trade surplus from Roman times (where Roman tried to ban Chinese silk imports) and China have been an export economy for the longest of times. Modern economists have often estimated that the Chinese GDP represented a significant part of the world's until the 1800s -> 80% of the world's total in 1600s. So I am going to float the idea that China wasn't very interested in trading with foreigners as trade back home is so much more productive.*




Can Chinese ships make the journey? The
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made it from HK, around the cape of good hope, to NYC, Boston and then to London without issue. I doubt any older Chinese vessels will have issues travelling to Europe. While her speed was considered fast, as fast as contemporary American packet ships.*




We have to look at the European ascend and the Asian descend.*
1) Christiandom were unable to trade with Asia due to the powerful Muslim empires - which for the first time in global history, Money is less important than idealology/religion. There is an incentive for Europeans to find a new route to India/China.*
2) Basically, traditional empires were waning in 1500s 1600s -Aztec empire was crumbling, Ming China was waning, Majapahit empire was crumbling - basically, there was a huge power vacuum which the European did eventually fill. Japan was embroiled in internal conflict. While western Europe is more protected from ground invasion by central and eastern European nations - Romania, Venetians, and can have the luxuary to develop a navy. for the case of GB, her survival depended on her navy.
3) The penchant that, an army is more resilient than a navy and a navy require longer time to build -> you can gather a band of men together and have some combat effectiveness who can disperse and live off the land, but you will need bases, supply tactics to train and maintain a navy. The Ming was in a live and death struggle with the Manchus and Mongols, priority was for the Army.*
4) After the defeat of Ming China, the Manchu people, who were not seafarers did not emphasize seafaring; they were more interested in rooting out the Ming loyalists, whom continued the struggle for another 50~ years. The Russian encroachment on historical Manchu heartland was seen as more pressing than the Spanish taking Philippines.*
5) Adding to the religion divide between the silk route nations (Islam) and the west (Chistiandom) the silk road was being controlled by the Mongols/Manchus/Tartars/Russians who were not necessarily friendly to allowing trade goods to pass through.*




So to me it is more like a series of unfortunate events or a series of aligned stars/planets.*




Had Russia not so soundly beat Scandinavia, and a powerful Scandinavian navy contests the British and Spanish ones, then I highly doubt that colonialism would have gone that far.*




I would see the redevelopment of the silk road as a part of a multi axis approach to China's reaccendment to a higher position of the world order.*




1) it would allow the development of China's interiors
2) it makes more sense to send good by rail from China's interior to India than to ship it to the coast, then put it on a ship *etc.*
3) When the traditional cultural powerhouse regains their status - Babylonia, Persia, - or dare I say, the middle east stabilizes, shipping goods over land and maintaining that cultural tie will be beneficial. I won't be supprized that China will consider tunneling the Himalayas for a cargo train route to India, the middle east.*
 

delft

Brigadier
Studying the past and thinking about the future go together naturally. I am very interested in what happened in the past but am unable, not knowing any of the relevant languages, knowing little about archeology, to contribute. So I am hopeful of learning what others find out about the past and I will think about what modern technology can contribute to life in the future and imagine how that will influence society and politics and how that can be influenced by social and political developments.
I already wrote that I thought the Black Death had made the transport over the Silk Road more expensive. Sea transport around Asia was not able to lower those costs. The Europeans blamed the Muslims for the higher prices and developed ships to get the spices for themselves, cutting out many middlemen and forcing the producers to lower production. ( The first Dutch Governor-General of Batavia, the center of the possessions of the Dutch East India Company - the VOC - massacred most of the inhabitants of the Banda Islands south of the Molucca Islands in order to reduce the production of spices and keep the prices high in the interest of the VOC while of course using his military power to keep the prices low for the producers. Until a few dozen years ago he was one of the cultural heroes of The Netherlands )
Many other factors will have influenced developments on the land route as well as at sea and I am happy to see the arguments brought forward in this thread.
 
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