Zheng Chenggong - Koxinga

delft

Brigadier
Asia Times on line publishes an interview with an American historian about what he calls the first European-Chinese war, the taking of Taiwan from the Dutch by Koxinga in the years 1661-1668 and the importance of Chinese military history. I wonder why he didn't mention the experience the Chinese had with the Portuguese ships. After all, Chinese pirates must have tried to take such vessels since before 1555. Will other members of our forum contribute their thoughts but especially the literature they find regarding the matters mentioned in or relevant to this article?
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INTERVIEW
Bridging East-West historical divides

Has China's rising economic power unsettled the proud West? Tonio Andrade further rattles the cage. This historian at Emory University argues that imperial China was stronger earlier - and for longer - than most Westerners realize. In this interview with Asia Times Online contributor Victor Fic, this researcher explains big ideas that might revolutionize our understanding of world history.

Andrade is the author of How Taiwan Became Chinese and Lost Colony: The Untold Story of Europe's First War with China. He holds a MA from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign and an MA, MPhil, and PhD from Yale University (1997, 1998, and 2000).

Victor Fic: Why is the Sino-Dutch War (1661-1668) neglected in the West?

Tonio Andrade: The war and the Chinese warlord Zheng Chenggong - called Koxinga in English - are famous throughout East Asia, but both are barely known in the West probably because it was a war that European powers lost. I became interested because it is extremely important - the first major conflict between Chinese and Western European forces, the only such conflict until the famous first Opium War of 1839-42. And whereas China lost that, Zheng Chenggong defeated Europe's most dynamic colonial power, the Dutch East India Company. I tell the story in Lost Colony: The Untold Story of China's First Great Victory Over the West.

VF: What sources did you study?

TA: The war is richly documented. Dutch manuscripts are tremendously detailed, giving a daily or hourly account, often from various perspectives. The Chinese sources are less detailed, but they offer a fascinating glimpse into Ming Dynasty military history, when Chinese forces were modernizing quickly, showing many of the developments that historians believed were then unique to Europe.


VF: We'll return to modernization theory. Lets first zoom in on the war. Why do you depict the main warrior, Koxinga, as a larger-than-life character?

TA: Koxinga is famous throughout East Asia for defeating the Dutch and his decade-long fight against the ethnically Manchu forces that founded the Qing Dynasty in 1644. The Chinese hail this national hero who bravely, selflessly, and loyally resisted foreigners and hoped to reinstate the Chinese Ming Dynasty. Yet he was born and raised in Japan, probably spoke Japanese as his first language. His father - a Chinese pirate - wasn't present for his birth. He was pillaging and smuggling as the world's most powerful pirate with 20,000 adherents.

VF: How is Koxinga fabled?

TA: His birth is described in some sources as miraculous: seeing omens and prophecies, a light shining down from heaven at the moment of parturition, an auspicious sea creature thrashing in the bay near his mother's house. It was a fun challenge to try to weave stories like this into the text even as I kept the emphasis on firm historical grounding.

VF: The glowing omens seemed to come true when he inherited wealth ... .

TA: When a young Zheng Chenggong went to China to begin his Chinese education, his father had "gone legit" and become one of the richest men in the imperium. Koxinga inherited his father's empire and used it to fund one of the globe's most powerful armies inspired by his Japanese background. Some units wore samurai-style masks and carried samurai-style swords. He was an effective commander, fighting up and down the Chinese coast against the mighty Manchus, founders of a new dynasty, the Qing (1644 AD - 1911 AD), which sought to take over all of China.

VF: Who was his Dutch nemesis or team of adversaries?

TA: He was the irascible Frederick Coyet, Taiwan's governor. Coyet had acrimonious disagreements with his subordinates and superiors. In general, the Chinese continually out thought and out fought the less-skilled Dutch.

VF: Summarize the context and cause of the fracas.

TA: The Dutch had settled Taiwan in 1624 and began inviting Chinese colonists there who established rice paddies and sugar plantations, taking over the hunting fields of the native head-hunters. The Dutch levied taxes on the colonists and both sides benefitted, albeit with some abuses and distrust. But in 1661, Koxinga wanted Taiwan as a base to fight the Manchu Qing (1644 AD - 1911 AD). They increasingly encroached on his mainland bases. So he invaded Taiwan with the largest Chinese ocean-going fleet since Zheng He's famous voyages of the early 1400s.

VF: What were the war's cardinal events?

TA: Koxinga sailed past the main Dutch defenses near today's Tainan City, entering Taiwan through the little used "Dear's Ear" channel. Usually it was too shallow for large oceangoing vessels, but Koxinga timed his approach with a high tide, and Dutch guns pointed at empty space as Dutch sentinels watched hundreds of Chinese vessels safely land his troops. They quickly overcame most Dutch positions. Within days the only tenable Dutch defense was the main, powerful fortress called Zeelandia Castle. Today you can visit the ruins.

VF: What is your conclusion on the balance of power between them?

TA: The Chinese exceeded the Dutch in leadership, in drill, and in cannons, but the latter had two cardinal advantages that I did not expect to find. First, Dutch ships were overwhelmingly superior to Chinese vessels in deepwater combat. I found many passages in Chinese sources about how formidable Dutch ships were. Each Dutch ship could take on 20 or so Chinese vessels, although Chinese commanders often won through superior leadership. No vessel can sail directly windward or into the wind, but the Dutch were far better at sailing at a closer angle, several times helping the Dutch.

VF: What was the second Dutch plus?

TA: It was the European artillery fortress design developed in the Renaissance and which spread throughout the continent. It had large, protruding bastions at the four corners with mounted cannon that could fire at almost any angle. The forts were nearly impossible to storm. Fort Zeelandia was one. It stymied Koxinga several times, to his surprise because it was considerably smaller than most Chinese walled cities he had overcome. Its lethal cannonfire shredded his powerful army. It took him nine months to finally force a surrender aided by a high-ranking commander who defected, the drunkard Hans Radij. So I agree with historian Geoffrey Parker that the fort was a vital tool for European expansion. The other perspective, from historian Jeremy Black, too hastily dismisses the artillery fort here.

VF: Prove your claim that the generally more powerful Dutch erred but Koxinga was a matchless leader and that was the true margin of victory for the Chinese.

TA: Often, Koxinga and his officers outsmarted the Dutch. In the first significant land battle, Chinese commander Chen Ze defeated Dutch musketeers by secretly surrounding them. Later the Dutch managed to receive a huge relief fleet that brought supplies and soldiers. The Chinese were terrified. But when the Dutch fleet attacked instead of blockading Koxinga, Chen Ze again outwitted the Dutch, luring their ships into an ambush.

VF: Underscore how Koxinga often drew upon traditional Chinese ways of war.

TA: My research revealed this intriguing factor. Koxinga and his generals drew on a rich, useful tradition of Chinese military thought. It goes back to Sun Tzu's "Art of War" and beyond. Some Chinese scholars have even argued that his use of traditional strategies was key to his victory. I think that is somewhat true. Westerners are largely unaware of this military tradition. It is worth studying intently. I am doing so by immersing myself in late Ming - 1500s and early 1600s - military treatises and manuals. It will change how we think about military history and global history because it dispels myths.

VF: Some claim that as Koxinga died in howling, contorting agony - steam rose from his head. Do you believe it?

TA: It's impossible to know. Some claim he did because of his fury over what he perceived as incest committed by his son, gnashing his own teeth and clawing at his own face. So many sources offer colorful but not entirely trustworthy stories. He was a legend even when living. He enjoyed his fame and encouraged people to tell tales about him, particularly emphasizing his samurai sense of loyalty, righteousness, and the favor of Heaven. Many suggest that his death was imbued with madness, so I do think the there's some truth to that. I don't know about the steam, though.

VF: Let us pull back and examine the medium-level issue about military affairs ... explain the theories.

TA: Scholars are presently vigorously debating a basic question of world history: when did Europe begin its ascendancy over the world? The traditionalists such as Joseph Bryant and Niall Ferguson argue Europe was on a separate path from Asia as early as the Renaissance. But the revisionists, such as Kenneth Pomeranz and Jack Goldstone, believe that until 1800 or so, developed parts of Asia were undergoing processes remarkably similar to those found in Europe.
It is very nettlesome to measure comparative rates of development, and scholars founder in a sea of statistics. Plus, such data tends to be poor for pre-modern history. So the debate is mired down and deadlocked. I thought that warfare between Asians and Europeans would illuminate relative rates of development - at least for military technology and techniques. It might correlate with other factors. And oddly there is a dearth of research on such topics, one reason that the Sino-Dutch Taiwan War was neglected.

VF: Trace your navigation of the intellectual shoals.

TA: I was a firm revisionist when I started the book, feeling that China and Europe were equally matched, and that traditionalist arguments about European military and technical superiority were wrong. But as I read the sources, such as Chinese accounts of battles, and Dutch ships' logs, they revealed the Dutch enjoyed significant advantages. Even Chinese accounts from the time admitted Dutch ships were enormously powerful and guns advanced and worth copying. So I moved to a new middle ground. Yes, Europe was already in the 1600s developing techniques and technologies that conferred an edge over Asians. But, I assert that most traditionalists know too little Asian history and rely on stereotypes about Asian weakness.

VF: You defy these shibboleths?

TA: Strong modernizing tendencies appeared in Asian societies, too, such as late Ming-era warcraft. It astonishes me how little we know of what we must study. Asian history is a flourishing field, and we'll learn much in the future. It will revolutionize our understanding of world history in unimaginable ways.

VF: What a claim to pursue! ... You argue that the Chinese invented cannon and these spread to the West and then back, correct?

TA: It is still commonly believed, although not among most historians, that the Chinese invented gunpowder - but only for fireworks. Even among historians, we're only now beginning to appreciate the extent of traditional Chinese firearm expertise and development in the 1100s, 1200s, and 1300s. The sources are manifold and rich, and we have only begun to dig in. Centuries later, when Europeans arrived in East Asia and Chinese experts saw the European cannons, the latter were very impressed and immediately began copying. They even dredged up cannons from Dutch and English wrecks and shipped them from south China to Beijing to be made in to "Red Barbarian Cannons".

VF: Did the Chinese work hard at this?

TA: The dredging was arduous - derricks based on giant wooden platforms winching the cannons - all muscle power. It indicates how seriously the Chinese took cannon manufacture. It is evidence of Western superiority but also a sign of continued dynamism in Chinese technology. After all, the Europeans got cannons from the Chinese - not directly, of course, but through Arabs and inner-Asian peoples, some of whom had had Chinese cannons aimed against them. This kind of cross-cultural interadoption was common.

VF: Koxinga's muskets are part of this larger debate ...

TA: The Chinese adopted advanced European-style handguns long before Koxinga. The great Ming general Qi Jiguang, for example, writes about them in his famous treatise called Ji Xiao Xin Shu from 1560. But General Qi got them not directly from Europeans but from the Japanese. The latter adopted them a couple decades before from the Portuguese. So were they European by then or Japanese? After all, the Japanese had improved and adapted Portuguese models.

VF: It will surprise many that Koxinga fielded crack African musketeers - from where?

TA: His African musketeers are an engrossing topic. His pirate father had an African honor guard recruited thanks to his close ties to the Portuguese in Macau. Koxinga's African musketeers were very effective in Taiwan. Some were former slaves to the Dutch whom he freed and employed to shoot against their former masters. There is still much to learn about them!

VF: Partisans of the Western military revolution model claim that drills decisively strengthened Westerners as "better killers". Why do you spurn the notion?

TA: Western military historians, such as Geoffrey Parker and Michael Roberts, have emphasized new types of military drilling because the weapons took long to reload. Musketeers had to coordinate, taking turns firing and loading. This took enormous discipline and training. People like Parker are quite careful, but others such as Hanson have rather less carefully considered such discipline a hallmark of a "Western Way of War" that made Europeans better killers than other peoples around the world. Yet Hanson didn't realize that Chinese generals such as Qi Jiguang were doing it, too. And one of the funnest parts of my research was reading Koxinga's chronicles, which detail how he developed innovative drills, following his soldiers around and training them. It's a remarkable parallel to Europe at that time.

VF: How does the French social philosopher Michel Foucault (1924 - 1984) figure into this?

TA: Military drill was an example of a major change in Western societies, in which human beings were trained and disciplined in new ways. It was, in Foucault's mind, part of the inception of modernity. Yet he of course knew next to nothing about China. What would he say if we were able to show him Chinese books detailing drilling patterns, books that were remarkably similar to the Western military manuals being printed at precisely the same time on the other side of the world?.

What's striking is that the progenitor of the famous military revolution model for European history, Michael Roberts, used the same image to illustrate his point about new forms of military discipline as Foucault did to illustrate his model of the evolution of social power in the West, yet it is almost certain that the two historians never read each other's work.

VF: Now Chinese voices are heard. What is the Chinese military revolution school and why do you welcome it?

TA: The Chinese historian Sun Laichen argued compellingly that the military revolution should be seen as a global process and that it began not in Europe but in China, during the pre-Ming wars of the mid-1300s. Other historians, such as Peter Lorge and Kenneth Swope, have built on his ideas. It's a very exciting time to do Chinese military history. We're about to learn an enormous amount, which I believe will change the way we look at world history.

VF: More widely still, why do you eschew the notion off modernity as a Western phenomenon?

TA: Yes, this is the most exciting aspect of my own and others' work right now. Historians - both Western and Asian - have tended to see modernity and modernization as beginning in Western Europe and propagating outward. Recent work from historians of Asia suggests otherwise. People around the world for millennia had been relatively disconnected. But in the 1400s, 1500s, and 1600s, they came into closer and closer contact, even as world population - excepting America - grew dramatically. Therefore, ideas and technologies spread much more quickly, as with the cannons I cited earlier.

When cannon technology reached war-prone Europe, the Europeans eagerly embraced and refined it. The Portuguese loaded these improved cannons on their naos (ships) and the Dutch on yachts. Then Chinese felt impressed and immediately improved and adapted them. The same dynamic occurred with many technologies and ideas.

VF: So modernization was interactive?

TA: Modernization was a process of cross-fertilization and increased transcultural contact, not something rooted mainly in the West that others borrowed. This is still a matter of considerable dispute. The revisionist-traditionalist debate I mentioned before is precisely about this. But there is some remarkable scholarship.

VF: Direct ATol readers eager to learn more.

TA: A new book by Bin Wong and Jean Laurent Rosenthal makes a brilliant new nuanced case for revisionism, and the breathtaking work of Victor Lieberman sketches out a paradigm of global history that focuses on parallel developments throughout Eurasia.

VF: Why are so excited by this?

TA: It's a thrilling time to be a historian. Our understanding of world history is in the throes of a revolution, in which older, nationalist and civilizationalist biases are being reexamined in important ways. We're building toward a truly global perspective on our human past. Key to that is the early modern world's increasing interconnections - the new sea and land routes, more trade and travel, the rapid growth in printing in China and the West. These processes were broadly analogous to the Internet speeding collaboration and the rate of technological and scientific progress. As the world shrinks, people connect more densely, and the result is rapid change.

VF: History is best when we can apply it. As for lessons, what can you share?

TA: Taiwan is more important than ever in geopolitics. Beijing is determined to keep it within its orbit. The recent Guo Min Dang [Kuomintang] victory in recent elections signals smoother cross-straight relations, but will these last? China's People's Liberation Army is rapidly preparing for a possible conflict with the US over the island. Lets hope peace prevails, but Washington particularly must invest in more knowledge about China.

For just a fraction of what we spend on military development, we could fund China-studies programs at universities. Imagine what insights a Center for Chinese Military History could discover. But Americans don't realize history's importance or how much Chinese policymakers value it. As Sun Zi advised, "Know your enemy and know yourself." The Chinese are following that dictum. Americans should try it.

Notes:
1. Tonio Andrade can be contacted at [email protected].

Victor Fic ([email protected]) is a veteran journalist on East Asia now in Toronto.

(Copyright 2012 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
I remember someone mentioned the African musketeers a few weeks ago.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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I read this article with great interest as it honed in on the central question of why China lost its position of primacy to the West, even though it managed to develop in many areas equal to the West for a long period.

It sheds some insight into areas of interest of my own and does illustrate how understanding the past can be key to predicting the future.

The key area of the interview was the illustration of how the West's Navel power was markedly superior to that of the East's.

There are two ways to move wealth in bulk across the globe:

Overland - which China controlled for most of the last few millennia by way of the silk route
By Sea - which the West was able to do with its rapid advances in Navel Technology.

The Advanced ships also gave the West a form of Strategic mobility while China was dependant on a more Static defensive posture.

For most of history, Long distance Sea Travel was too precarious to be considered a serious undertaking and only land travel was reliable enough to ensure viable trade. The rapid Navel advancements of the 17th C onwards changed this, making long distance Sea Transportation not only viable, but more efficient and reliable than the old land routes. Therefore the trade goods that once flowed into China for onward transmission westwards were being intercepted or seized at source by Western Maritime Powers and those goods shipped West instead.

The loss of these goods represented a massive loss of revenue and derailed the Imperial Gravy Train. Without these revenues, the Chinese Emperor could no longer be "as a river to his people" and the centre was weakened and other nobles turned to various forms of adventurism to satisfy there longing for lost wealth.

It is therefore no coincidence that the rise of China in the modern age is also matched by the desire to employ modern communications and Infrastructure to reopen the old Cross Continental trade routes and that much of her early resurgent diplomacy has been about creating the stable environment in which these can flourish.

If the 17thC set a paradigm shift that favoured the West over China for control of key trade routes, the question is now whether the 21st C marks a new paradigm where conditions return to those that favour China.
 

delft

Brigadier
Thank you, Sampan Viking. This sets up a few thought lines with me.
Only the Eastern end of the silk road was controlled by the Chinese. Most of the work was done by the nomads living in the Eurasian steppes.
That reminds me of a very good book by a Soviet writer about nomads, which I read some thirty years ago in a German translation. The point that is relevant here is that the nomads of the Eurasian steppes were often military superior to the settled peoples to the South and West of the steppes. They traded with these peoples but plundered or even conquered them when the opportunity offered. The Great Wall was at most times effective in protecting China. I have read somewhere that from the third century AD the Iranians introduced alfalfa to feed their war horses and that they organised something similar to European feodalism to have armored horsemen to keep out the Huns which would then inspire those Huns to attack and plunder the Roman Empire rather than Iran. When the pest came in the 14th century, just after the silk trade had also transmitted the design of cannon, Europe might have lost a third of the population but the the steppe peoples might have lost 90%. Demographic disaster and firearms in the hands of the Russians destroyed the military superiority of the nomads.
The changed demography also would have made the caravan trade much more expensive and would be an added reason, perhaps even the main reason, for Europeans to develop the sea trade to Asia.
The interview stresses that the Chinese ships were less able to sail on the wind than European ones. But later Chinese vessels were better. See for instance Tales of the Fish Patrol by Jack London in which he writes about his experience in working for the fishery patrol in the Bay of San Francisco about a century ago when people of different extraction used fishing vessels of the design from their homelands, as Greece and China and others. He said that the Chinese vessels sailed much better. There is also the anecdote of the Australian who in the middle of the 19th century bought a junk in Hong Kong and sailed it with a Chinese master to Sidney. The junk sailed beautifully until the master went home. The Australian was not able to sail her effectively. When the master was persuaded to come back a few years later she again sailed perfectly.
The European have been a belligerent lot at least since the time of the Vikings and they developed the quality of the guns more than the Chinese did, but recovered guns from the Armada were still pretty miserable by the standards of a hundred years later. So I would think the Dutch guns in this war are likely to have been far from perfect. Just a point that will have to be investigated.

A very different point. The ancestors of Polynesians departed from China about five thousand years ago and reached Hawaii, New Zealand and Madagascar about a thousand years ago. So seafaring over long distances is not unknown in the area. But China was naturally militarily most engaged in protecting itself against the nomads.

I think we are really at the beginning of a long rewriting of the history of the world.
 

Lion

Senior Member
How about the Qing Manchu defeat the Russia in the 17th century? Does that consider one of the few early encounter between the Chinese and european forces?

The poor and conversative of the Manchu leadership has to do with the downfall of China superiority. The last dynasty was rules by Manchu and suffer the worst against foreign aggression. If Manchu rules was topple 100 years earlier and go back to Han's people rule, the history might be rewrited.
 

delft

Brigadier
Russian military power, thousands of kilometers from Moscow at the end of a trail longer than from New York to Oregon and through more difficult terrain, will have been slight indeed. The Chinese army operating in the area would probably only have amounted to a few thousand men. This is not to be compared with throwing the Dutch out of Taiwan.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
How about the Qing Manchu defeat the Russia in the 17th century? Does that consider one of the few early encounter between the Chinese and european forces?

The poor and conversative of the Manchu leadership has to do with the downfall of China superiority. The last dynasty was rules by Manchu and suffer the worst against foreign aggression. If Manchu rules was topple 100 years earlier and go back to Han's people rule, the history might be rewrited.

I tend to view China as an Empire, or a name of an Empire just like the Roman Empire and its derivatives (Byzantine Empire based in Constantinople (second rome), Russian Empire (third/fourth rome) based in Moscow, Holy Roman Empire (third/fourth rome) based in Numberg.

So I see the Russian/Manchu conflict as a really hard one to answer. Russia, strictly speaking, is not considered traditionally European. Manchu; traditionally are not considered Chinese-Chinese as they have just conquered China and have not be sinatized yet and have fought the Russians only with Bannermen- therefore not really a Chinese-Western confrontation.

Also Chinese =/= Han; many people who think and call themselves Han are probably not exactly Han. E.g. the Qin, were not exactly "Han" central plane people (well they were before the Han; and they were Chinese),

/edit also, the Qing did not suffer the most under foreign aggression, the Ming and Song did, both dynasty were conquered and pacified by foreigners. Qing fell, technically by popular revolt.
 
Last edited:

Lezt

Junior Member
Thank you, Sampan Viking. This sets up a few thought lines with me.
Only the Eastern end of the silk road was controlled by the Chinese. Most of the work was done by the nomads living in the Eurasian steppes.
That reminds me of a very good book by a Soviet writer about nomads, which I read some thirty years ago in a German translation. The point that is relevant here is that the nomads of the Eurasian steppes were often military superior to the settled peoples to the South and West of the steppes. They traded with these peoples but plundered or even conquered them when the opportunity offered. The Great Wall was at most times effective in protecting China. I have read somewhere that from the third century AD the Iranians introduced alfalfa to feed their war horses and that they organised something similar to European feodalism to have armored horsemen to keep out the Huns which would then inspire those Huns to attack and plunder the Roman Empire rather than Iran. When the pest came in the 14th century, just after the silk trade had also transmitted the design of cannon, Europe might have lost a third of the population but the the steppe peoples might have lost 90%. Demographic disaster and firearms in the hands of the Russians destroyed the military superiority of the nomads.
The changed demography also would have made the caravan trade much more expensive and would be an added reason, perhaps even the main reason, for Europeans to develop the sea trade to Asia.
The interview stresses that the Chinese ships were less able to sail on the wind than European ones. But later Chinese vessels were better. See for instance Tales of the Fish Patrol by Jack London in which he writes about his experience in working for the fishery patrol in the Bay of San Francisco about a century ago when people of different extraction used fishing vessels of the design from their homelands, as Greece and China and others. He said that the Chinese vessels sailed much better. There is also the anecdote of the Australian who in the middle of the 19th century bought a junk in Hong Kong and sailed it with a Chinese master to Sidney. The junk sailed beautifully until the master went home. The Australian was not able to sail her effectively. When the master was persuaded to come back a few years later she again sailed perfectly.
The European have been a belligerent lot at least since the time of the Vikings and they developed the quality of the guns more than the Chinese did, but recovered guns from the Armada were still pretty miserable by the standards of a hundred years later. So I would think the Dutch guns in this war are likely to have been far from perfect. Just a point that will have to be investigated.

A very different point. The ancestors of Polynesians departed from China about five thousand years ago and reached Hawaii, New Zealand and Madagascar about a thousand years ago. So seafaring over long distances is not unknown in the area. But China was naturally militarily most engaged in protecting itself against the nomads.

I think we are really at the beginning of a long rewriting of the history of the world.

I would disagree that China was militarily strong mainly on land. Chinese cultures have significant seafaring heritage; The non-nomad dynasties had a quite powerful navies. Which in fact, Zheng Chenggong was following in the foot steps of Song dynasty marines fighting off Mogols by the sea and amphibious assault when he fought the Manchus.
 

Lion

Senior Member
I tend to view China as an Empire, or a name of an Empire just like the Roman Empire and its derivatives (Byzantine Empire based in Constantinople (second rome), Russian Empire (third/fourth rome) based in Moscow, Holy Roman Empire (third/fourth rome) based in Numberg.

So I see the Russian/Manchu conflict as a really hard one to answer. Russia, strictly speaking, is not considered traditionally European. Manchu; traditionally are not considered Chinese-Chinese as they have just conquered China and have not be sinatized yet and have fought the Russians only with Bannermen- therefore not really a Chinese-Western confrontation.

Also Chinese =/= Han; many people who think and call themselves Han are probably not exactly Han. E.g. the Qin, were not exactly "Han" central plane people (well they were before the Han; and they were Chinese),

/edit also, the Qing did not suffer the most under foreign aggression, the Ming and Song did, both dynasty were conquered and pacified by foreigners. Qing fell, technically by popular revolt.

Actually, I regard Manchu , Tibetian and Mongolian also part of the whole Chinese.. Being Chinese doesn't neccessary means Han. Now PRC consists Of Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Shenyang(Former called Liaoning).

These races used to be alien of China but now all intergrated under whole PRC. I wouldn't called them foreign aggression. PRC has strike off Yue Fei as historial national hero because the enemy he fights was Jin(ex Manchu).

Under Qing, China has European power and Japanese ravaging her... I will regard them as real foreign aggression.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
Actually, I regard Manchu , Tibetian and Mongolian also part of the whole Chinese.. Being Chinese doesn't neccessary means Han. Now PRC consists Of Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Shenyang(Former called Liaoning).

These races used to be alien of China but now all intergrated under whole PRC. I wouldn't called them foreign aggression. PRC has strike off Yue Fei as historial national hero because the enemy he fights was Jin(ex Manchu).

Under Qing, China has European power and Japanese ravaging her... I will regard them as real foreign aggression.

Yes, I know Yiufei was struck off as a national and cultural hero.

But if you look carefully at the map, China does not control... Mongolia... -> Inner Mongolia is rather small in comparison to outer Mongolia. Nor do China control outer Tibet or outer Manchuria. My real question is, where do you draw the line? Japanese were 99.99% DNA the same as Chinese/Han.

Vietnam, Polynesia, Korea, Japan all paid tribute to "China" just like how Mongolia, Manchus and Tibetan did in certain point in time. Similarly, the relationship is reversed when "China" paid tribute to other foreign state.

So if one day hypothetically, if China absorbs Japan, does it mean that Nationalist China did not fight Japanese foreign aggression?

Or lets spin it around, Since "Chinese" culture is adopted by the Manchu, Mongolians, who conquered "China" and became "China", then does that mean that "China" conquered lets say the USA and adopt the American Dream, does that mean that... China ceases to exist and have become the USA?
 

solarz

Brigadier
Yes, I know Yiufei was struck off as a national and cultural hero.

But if you look carefully at the map, China does not control... Mongolia... -> Inner Mongolia is rather small in comparison to outer Mongolia. Nor do China control outer Tibet or outer Manchuria. My real question is, where do you draw the line? Japanese were 99.99% DNA the same as Chinese/Han.

Vietnam, Polynesia, Korea, Japan all paid tribute to "China" just like how Mongolia, Manchus and Tibetan did in certain point in time. Similarly, the relationship is reversed when "China" paid tribute to other foreign state.

So if one day hypothetically, if China absorbs Japan, does it mean that Nationalist China did not fight Japanese foreign aggression?

Or lets spin it around, Since "Chinese" culture is adopted by the Manchu, Mongolians, who conquered "China" and became "China", then does that mean that "China" conquered lets say the USA and adopt the American Dream, does that mean that... China ceases to exist and have become the USA?

You're mixing up "China" as a political entity, and "Chinese" as a cultural concept.

I agree that both Song and Ming "suffered" more than Qing from "foreign aggression", as both dynasties were actually conquered by foreign powers, whereas the Qing dynasty was overthrown by its own people. This is because "China" as a political entity, has changed vastly throughout its history. Were the Mongols under Genghis Khan Chinese? No, obviously not, as China was the Song Dynasty at the time. However, the Yuan under Kublai Khan is undoubtedly Chinese.

The dynasty mantra for China goes like this: "Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing" (唐宋元明清). Note that this includes the "foreign" dynasties of both Yuan and Qing, but do not include other "foreign" dynasties that existed at the same time as a "Chinese" dynasty and occupying a territory belonging to modern PRC: the Jin (金), for example, whose capital was in the vicinity of modern-day Beijing.

However, if we had to take one largely constant element of "Chineseness", it would have to be the Chinese culture. Much as Jews are defined throughout history by their culture and religion, so are the Chinese truly defined by their culture.
 
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