ZH-05 Objective Individual Combat Weapon. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

Discussion in 'Army' started by tanlixiang28776, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. ZeEa5KPul
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    ZeEa5KPul Junior Member
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    That seems like a really bad idea. I don't know how prevalent level IV armour is, but if it becomes standard issue then the opposing force is going to be hosed if all they have to defeat it are 20mm grenades. What's wrong with going back to 7.62mm or exploring 6.5+mm ammunition?
     
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  2. antiterror13
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    antiterror13 Colonel

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    is the unit cost of QTS11 really US$78k ? .... really hard to believe
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2018/01/article/pla-infantrymen-now-powerful-rifles-still-lag-us/
     
  3. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    agreed although it can also be based around fighting entrenched or defiled enemy forces.

    6.8mm it’s confirmed as 6.8mm. However in terms of weight not quite. As I point out the QTS-11 weighs 15 pounds in battle configuration ( loaded with optic).
    Recently one of the NGSW rifle entry’s was published in TFB the XR68 from VK Integrated system and Bachstine Consuilting. Unloaded they say it’s under 9 pounds and that’s with a power rail system. So although heavier than the M4A1 it’s about on par with a .308 in terms of weapon but that weapon has a integrated power management system.
    The ammo types are being pushed to use lighter materials, Polymers, compound cases and alternative metals reducing the ammo weight so you basically are using a ammo that weighs the same as the current 5.56mm. Basically with a little guess work we are looking at 11-12.5 pounds that is assuming XR68 loaded with 30 round of ammo weighing the same as current and a optical fire control system like the Trackingpoint system which is a requirement for NGSW. That’s 3 pounds less than the QTS11 full system. Add a M320 for identical weight. This for a weapon the XR68 that is dimensionally close to and based off the AR15 series in operation and design.

    Well to a degree remember that the PLA is said to have new ammo on the way for there new rifle.

    The 20mm in this case is not a High pressure type. This is a low pressure round. What gives it a flatter trajectory is it’s also a lighter smaller caliber round than say the 40mm. It’s being fired from about a 16 inch barrel fine but it’s still a grenade. It’s not a cannon. The pressure load has to be kept low to pressure the weapon from killing the shooter.

    Suppressive Fire is universal. However as the M27 indicates the use in US and NATO is more specialized to accurate fire than spray and pray. Farther-more remember that the US and Europe had this same concept in the works for sometime.
    The ENVG-B mated to the current M4A1 already displays a feed from a rifle mounted sight to the Soldiers NVGs that’s not a big step from aiming around corners. The Commercial Trackingpoint and Israeli Smartshooter also allow such.

    The Russians have already loaded there squads back up with 7.62x54R LMGs and some military are looking back to 7.62x51mm. 6.5mm is also an option but it’s not the 6.5mm in the small assault rifle class but the larger battle rifle class. So weight is a factor the rifles get bigger and heavier. Harder to control in rapid fire.
    It seems like the aim for the moment of the PRC is to hot load and harden tip 5.8mm rounds in the next service rifle.
     
  4. plawolf
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    plawolf Brigadier

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    Those are smart grenade launchers, and in my book, an air bursting grenade easily trumps spray and pray; especially when you can shoot said grenade from cover and not worry about suppression fire.

    The HEAT round is more of a future-proof idea to deal with next gen powered full body suits like the US Ironman and Russian suits etc.

    When those come online, they will probably only be equipped with a small number of soldiers, who in turn would act like line breakers who charge head on at the enemy. Even 6.5/6.8 ‘overmatch’ rounds would struggle against such suits, which is the whole point of them. 20mm HEAT, not so much.
     
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  5. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Again the US and NATO tend to emphasize aimed fire over rapid fire.
    Rapid automatic fire is effective primarily against moving targets or very close range engagement. The preferred mode is semiautomatic fire or extremely short bursts. This allows better engagement at ranges and less risk of collateral.
    At the same point US and NATO also have emerging or developed corner shooting and air-bursting 40mm grenade systems

    Except those systems are highly unlikely to live up to Ironman. The near term may have issue of passive Exoskeleton systems but powered are unlikely for the near to mid term at least until the late 2020s even then the armor capacity will be nothing like something from Tony Stark.
    The Russians suit is pure Hollywood.
    The Problem with a HEAT round is it’s a impact based system intended for direct fire. The more likely outcome would be indirect based on fragmentation effects which is more easily countered.

    I disagree entirely. Unless you are building mecha it’s impossible to armor infantry Master Chief Style. Battle rifle caliber systems with hardened penetrators are more likely in the direct fire more to be effective against anything the future might bring save the Emergence or Terminators. The material science just doesn’t allow plate armor light enough to move with even assisted and strong enough to stop high velocity high mass.
    The 20mm bolt action single shot grenade is intended for set mission types and targets primarily vs troops in cover. HEAT type may be suited to trying to counter MRAPS or drones but that’s about it. The main method of attack is going to be area attack but the 20mm rounds are going to come short in that.
     
  6. ZeEa5KPul
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    ZeEa5KPul Junior Member
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    Sounds like China's take on M855A1. Gun Jesus did a video on that round some time back and it utterly, embarrassingly failed against Russian level IV ceramic. A round like that in 5.8mm would be, what, 10% more energetic? Doesn't sound like that would make the difference.

    That makes more sense, I thought you meant something like using them against standard infantry with a level IV vest. There's still the issue of dealing with standard infantry with a level IV vest.
     
  7. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    M855A1’s failure wasn’t an Embarrassment as it’s not an AP round. It’s a AB round anti barrier. It’s meant to replace the M855 it’s self a SS109 round equivalent with a steel penetrator which then in 1979 was only classed as “Semi Armor Piercing” meaning it would go though the kind of armor used at that point in history which would have stopped a hand gun round and not
    Much more.
    M855A1 was meant to punch through wood or drywall or the sheet metal of a Toyota that might hide a unarmored insurgent well providing performance from a 14.5 inch barreled M4A1 closer to M855 from a 20 inch barreled M16A4.
    As such it’s a general purpose round not meant to take Level IV armor.

    The AP round of the US M4A1 is the Tungsten cored M995 which is a very different round.
    However that round dates to the 1990s and emerged before the Level IV round.
    Generally the first step in facing against a harder target is higher velocity and a higher density penetrator.
    M855A1 and the known 5.8mm rounds are steel penetrator. Steel is less dense than Tungsten alloys. But you can only do that for so long before you max out the tech and need to make more changes this is where a bigger caliber comes in.

    This evolution really played out not in small arms until recently but in tank guns of World War Two. Tanks start the war at about 30mm-37mm quickly cut though 40-50mm than 60-70mm you end the war with 88, 90mm. A few token 105,120,122mm guns on Heavy Tanks.
    They use the small caliber, the. Upgraded the ammo, then lengthened the barrel then replaced the gun with a larger one. Wash rinse repeat.
     
  8. ohan_qwe
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    ohan_qwe New Member

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    The tanks went from 100hp engine to 1000hp engine, unless someone invents power armor you are limited to one manpower.
     
  9. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Exactly my point. As such for the foreseeable we are limited to Level IV armor ratings which can be defeated with small arms by a higher density battle rifle class round.
     
  10. ohan_qwe
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    ohan_qwe New Member

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    I guess the question will be if you should optimize your guns against units with level 4 or insurgents. Level 4 is rated for 30-06 AP rounds so you have to get something like 338 magnum or subcaliber/flechette/tungsten if you want to go through quality vests. I think that those rounds will be suboptimal against insurgents.
     

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