Z-8 and Z-18 transport helicopter - family & versions

Z15 is the Chinese version of AC 352 which has been operating since 2009. It is exactly the same helicopter but using different engine because Prat and whitney engine is not available. Military spec like they say is a matter of documentation .
I work in nuclear industry and it is exactly the same stuff except that in nuclear they have much more documentation. So I don't think it is much of problem to get documentation prepared for military spec.You also need to work around the heli having a folded rear end obstruct the working area and reduced access

In December 2014, the first production H175s, of the oil & gas industry model, entered service with

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operator

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(NHV) for operations over the

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; by August 2015, the first two examples had accumulated 1,000 flight hours over 750 flights, carrying a total of 11,000 passengers, while achieving a dispatch rate in excess of 90%.

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NHV has ordered a total of 16 H175s.

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It has been alleged that the intends to order a large quantity of AC352s in the next decade to replace a significant portion of their existing rotorcraft fleet, such as older , , and .

In March 2015, became the then-largest customer for the type, ordering a total of 17 H175s for offshore oil & gas missions. In June 2015, leasing firm expanded the number of H175s that it had on order to 28 rotorcraft. In June 2015, Russian operator , who had ordered a total of 15 H175s from Eurocopter Vostok in March 2011, announced that the remainder of its order had been placed on hold, this move was linked with a decline in oil prices and .

Hendrik_2000 said:

Z15 is the Chinese version of AC 352 which has been operating since 2009. It is exactly the same helicopter but using different engine because Prat and whitney engine is not available. Military spec like they say is a matter of documentation .
I work in nuclear industry and it is exactly the same stuff except that in nuclear they have much more documentation. So I don't think it is much of problem to get documentation prepared for military spec.

In December 2014, the first production H175s, of the oil & gas industry model, entered service with

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operator

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(NHV) for operations over the

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; by August 2015, the first two examples had accumulated 1,000 flight hours over 750 flights, carrying a total of 11,000 passengers, while achieving a dispatch rate in excess of 90%.

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NHV has ordered a total of 16 H175s.

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It has been alleged that the

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intends to order a large quantity of AC352s in the next decade to replace a significant portion of their existing rotorcraft fleet, such as older

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,

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,

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and

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.

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In March 2015,

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became the then-largest customer for the type, ordering a total of 17 H175s for offshore oil & gas missions.

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In June 2015, leasing firm

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expanded the number of H175s that it had on order to 28 rotorcraft.

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In June 2015, Russian operator

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, who had ordered a total of 15 H175s from Eurocopter Vostok in March 2011,

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announced that the remainder of its order had been placed on hold, this move was linked with a decline in oil prices and

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.

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Click to expand...

Err yet it still took an extra 7 years until AC352 made its maiden flight after H175, and no military variant of the H175 exists.

OTOH, Z-20 has already been flying over three years, and is a military spec helicopter from the ground up.

An ASW Z-20 would be larger and more capable than Z-15 in virtually every single way, the only uncertain thing we don't know is whether it can fit into the hangars of 054A and DDGs, but I think I laid out enough evidence in my last post showing the folded dimensions of Dauphin, Ka-27, and MH-60R to make a convincing case that it may well be possible.


If an ASW Z-20 can be developed and if it can fit inside the hangars of the navy's surface combatants, I think it makes absolute sense for them to choose a 10 ton helicopter vs a 7.5 ton helicopter, simply based on capability. Not to mention the Navy operating Z-20 will also have commonality with the Army's Z-20s as well, helping to share costs.

It is still to be seen if it can be fitted inside a crowded and narrow type 54 hanger without extensive modification
As now we don't know the engine that will power Z20 or any other data like MTO or carry on weight. availability rate, operating cost

That is why I said pie in the sky
Z15 is more mature because we know exactly what their performance is and roomy has a lot of carrying capacity and should have no problem fitting into existing hanger of type 54 frigate

So the jury is still out there

Hendrik_2000 said:

It is still to be seen if it can be fitted inside a crowded and narrow type 54 hanger without extensive modification
As now we don't know the engine that will power Z20 or any other data like MTO or carry on weight. availability rate, operating cost

That is why I said pie in the sky
Z15 is more mature because we know exactly what their performance is and roomy has a lot of carrying capacity and should have no problem fitting into existing hanger of type 54 frigate

So the jury is still out there

Click to expand...

The only area of uncertainty I will concede to you is that we do not know if Z-20 can fit inside 054As hangar.

However, I think it is generally accepted that Z-20 will have a MTOW of about 10 tons. Things like operating cost, availability rate, are all unknowns for other aircraft as well.

What is not a matter of dispute is that an ASW Z-20 would be more capable than Z-15. Z-15 is a smaller and lighter aircraft, meaning less payload, less range, less endurance.

Z-15 also is not a military aircraft, it is a civil aircraft, meaning it will need not only modifications to harden it for military spec but also to modify it for the ASW/shipborne role, whereas Z-20 is already a military aircraft for military spec and will only need to be modified for the ASW/shipborne role.


If the hangar space is not an issue, an ASW variant of the Z-20 should clearly be the easier to develop and more capable aircraft than an ASW variant of Z-15.

Looks like they want to have a toast by naming their aircraft "booze"

(ok I know those are zeros)

The Z-15 has been test flown..

China current Helicopter is either too large or too small.Exactly! Listen to this guy

Hendrik_2000 said:

It is still to be seen if it can be fitted inside a crowded and narrow type 54 hanger without extensive modification
As now we don't know the engine that will power Z20 or any other data like MTO or carry on weight. availability rate, operating cost

That is why I said pie in the sky
Z15 is more mature because we know exactly what their performance is and roomy has a lot of carrying capacity and should have no problem fitting into existing hanger of type 54 frigate

So the jury is still out there

Click to expand...

Granted, the Z-20 is kinda big - smaller than the Z-8/18 sure but bigger than the Z-9. However the Z-15 is at its core a joint project with Airbus Helicopter. with certain degree of foreign-made components. Now, this won't matter if it's the civilian market or export military market in designated geographic zones (which the HAIG is granted market allotment in the agreement), but if it's to be PLA's new workhorse it'd require 100% MIC - we don't know if they've made it in the test flight prototype, but given that they delayed Z-15 just to wait for the WZ-16 instead of slapping it on with the P&W PT6 first...well you get the point.

My take on this is that the navalised variant of Z-20 won't be forthcoming until the baseline transport version has gone FRP and satisfied certain level of PLA/PLAAF allotment, while churning out navalised version. IIRC 054A helicopter deck can handle the Z-20, as seen when USN Seahawk made some landings during joint exercises in the past; given that Z-8 has folding rotors and tail, such technology ain't beyond the Chinese capability and definitely would incorporated into the navalised Z-20 so other than a tighter fit in the hanger that might affect the working space arrangement, it such fit.

The problem would be the 056 - there's no hanger on 056 but the deck...well since I've physically got on one (thanks to open house) and they always have a Z-9 parked there for good measure, I do agree that the rotor size and landing gear arrangement of Z-20 will be an issue here...even if they go SH-60 instead of MH-60S on the landing gear, the rotor size will leave very little safety margin in operations.

So, yeah, Z-15 may have a niche there...but that means concentrate the Z-9C assets with the 056 pairing while waiting for the Z-15 to take over the baton.

The actual length of the 056 helipad is about the same as the 054A, so there is not any greater danger from the rotors of a Z-20 to the 056 than there is to the 054A. I don't see any realistic niche for a navalized Z-15. Like the others have said, the capability increase of the Z-15 over the Z-9 is unworthy of a Z-9 replacement, not to mention the Z-20 is milspec from the ground up while the Z-15 would have to be modified. Meanwhile a folded Z-20 (12.5m x 3.3m), assuming it is similar to a folded MH/SH-60, is pretty close to the L/W dimensions of the Ka-27/28 (11.3m x 3.5m), meaning compatibility with all existing PLAN ships is not going to be an issue. A naval Z-15 really has got nothing going for it over a Z-20.

An increase of 1200kg carry on weight is nothing to be sniffle at It is 60% more capacity .Add to that close to 12 cubic meter of extra room. NH90 has 1900 shp rated Turboshaft.Z15 1600-1900 Shp rated turboshaft. comparable power
The extra power should translate into more equipment can be fitted into. Z 9 is outdated and not real ASW helicopter,doesn't have on board sonar processing, don't carry sonobuoy, no MAD. China now urgently need midsize ASW helicopter! If she is serious about ASW

Z20 is pie in the sky.It take Z8 almost a decade from first flight to operation unit. God know when will Z20 be operational. Z10 take 9 years from first flight to operational
Z15 - AC352 It is ready for production RIGHT NOW.
Mil spec is no problem Harbin has been building Z9 series for a long time