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Discussion in 'Air Force' started by delft, Jan 9, 2013.
The main rotor and powerplant are completely different, for starters.
The US had conducted studies to establish the needs and design for B1B and B2.
@t2contra, updating it is not the term in this case. They used the S70 as a template and designed a new chopper in that template. Claiming it as a updated would imply to many that it is a modification of the S70. This however is not a S70. It's a new design.
@MwRYum, Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin are not the ones who should be making a press kit. They aren't going to be selling Z20 on the international market. They are more interested in promoting the S70/Hi 60 series to international buyers. Harbin ad such as the seller and builder of the Z20 needs to be the one who sells the Z20 and clarifys its Advantages vs other systems in the same class. All Sikorsky can do is say "no it's not our Chopper, ours is still the more proven and relied on by a laundry list of nations and agencys globally."
That would sound like bull to some people and give the Chinese more credit than what I had in mind.
If and when AVIC and Harbin actually push Z-20 onto the export market, that's their job, naturally, to put forward such comparison and stuff, especially against competitors in the current generation in the promotion materials, naturally including a detailed comparison against the current generation of UH-60/S70 that the State Department and DoD allowed on the FMS catalogue.
But, what I've been saying is that the mainstream media, famous for not doing their homework, will by reflex all paster the Sikorsky and LM for "comments", don't expect them to call up AVIC's sales office for such. Neither would I count on such a short statement would be enough to turn those hyenas away.
Doesn't matter. There were lots of Flying Wing designers and lineages. The B2 is not based n the Horten 229. The HO229's Stealth was mostly academic and the claim was only made in the early 1980's
in 2008 when Northrop built a test model to prove it they found it had some stealthy characteristics. However the Smithsonian tracked down the original Ho229 captured in 1945 and studied it finding that it lacked any stealth coatings and debunking the stealth claims.
Farther more the B2 is substantially larger and other than being a tailless flying wing design, has little in common. And no it was not based on the Horten H.XVIII Amerika bomber either. The Stealth technology and development of the B2 started in the late 1970's.
moving on before the vain on the side of my head explodes.
I have been looking at the tail of the Z20 and the way it sweeps up vs the H60 and I am wondering if Harbin didn't design the fuselage with a bit of Z9 in there. I mean the faring around the Rotor mast also looks like something borrowed from Z9. The same for the Snubby nose. I mean at a glance the S70 and Z20 nose look alike but the nose of the S70 is more pronounced.
Think those parts share the same frame? On one hand that might be a bit sloppy, but on the other hand it’s not beyond the type of cost cutting measures we might see out of a Chinese SOE...
What about all the talk of Mi-17 innards?
Come on guys, can we leave this stupid copy&paste discussion? ... esp. to call the B-2 a Horten-based design.
I think it is undeniable that the Z-20 has a lot of S-70-DNA in it, but is also clear that it is not a 1:1 copy.
I would call that a cheap shot.
The PRC has spent years partnering with both Russian makers but also European maker Eurocopter. The emergence of the Z15/EC175 has barring here as it's likely that there is a mix of DNA. The S70 set the template but the fact it took so long for the Z20 to emerge means other factors had to come in. I think those were the builders looking to try and optimize a slightly better areo package hence the nose and faring as well as the partnership work on the Z15 and and development of Z18. These got the mechanic portions nailed down.
It's a matter of experience. Harbin as produced licenced designs, and modified them hence the Z9 and Z19. But a maker needs experience to really nail down a concept to maturity. Z15 as noted doesn't seem to be moving ahead for the PRC so what's happened to it's line? My answer is they leveraged it's technologies and concepts for Z20.
As T.E has explained in detail multiple times the Z20's functional requirements were similar to that the S60. The fact that China already had the S60, they were able to know the aircraft more intimately and thus created the Z20 loosely based from that initial base design. It is as simple as that. No need to overthink it or formed some ulterior motives etc.
If I give you a brand new F150 truck and 20 yrs from now you decide to build yourself another pickup truck with the same functional and operational needs, odds are your design would be somewhat similar to the F150. It doesn't mean you are making a replica of the F150 that you'd gotten from me!