Z-10 thread

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by Red Guard, Mar 2, 2006.

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Can the Z-10ME on it own stand up to heavier counterparts such as AH-64 or MI-28NM?

  1. Z-10ME is the worst out of the three

    28 vote(s)
    62.2%
  2. Z-10ME is the best out of the three

    4 vote(s)
    8.9%
  3. Z-10ME is better than AH-64 but worse than MI-28NM

    2 vote(s)
    4.4%
  4. Z-10ME is better than MI-28NM but worse than AH-64

    11 vote(s)
    24.4%
  1. Hyperwarp
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    Hyperwarp Captain

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    Ok, lets see now - http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/z-10a-03.jpg

    That's a lot of changes.

    ...so if it not underpowered, then can you tell us why the Z-10 ditched sensor suites in the original prototypes? The AH-64 like advanced sensors disappeared. The exhaust design also changed to something simpler. However, the Z-10ME which has a better engine has the exhaust redesigned (curved upwards - link).
     
  2. ZeEa5KPul
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    ZeEa5KPul Junior Member
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    It could be that the sensor suite was improved and miniaturized. How much heavier could the original suite possibly be that it would need to be torn out without replacement?

    There have been rumours that the WZ-9 had its power output improved by 15%. I don't recall the source, unfortunately, but this post by jobjed

    https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-engine-development.t252/page-497#post-540974

    especially
    lends credence to that rumour. The fact that the same suite remains on the Z-10ME despite the widespread consensus that it fields a stronger engine is evidence for the hypothesis that the sensor suite has been miniaturized, not compromised due to weight.
     
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  3. Franklin
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    Franklin Captain

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    China needs to move on from the Z-10 and start work on the 10 ton AH like the Mi-28 and the AH-64. China now has the engines for it the WZ-10 turboshaft engines. Is there any news on that front ?
     
  4. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    The PLA will do what the PLA will do. Z10 is still very new and has room to evolve. You don’t drop an established program of record and fielding a system just because you want to “Keep up with the Joneses”.
    It takes time energy and resources to run a program. Eventually they will have a new Attack chopper. But jumping the gun to something can leave them dragging there heals.
    The Russian Mi28 isn’t a moving bar.
    The Russian Ka52 seems to be evolving uniquely to take new missions.
    AH64E was just intoduced, but the US is pushing to disrupt the Rotary wing industry.
    FVL, Tiltrotors and compounds are back in the mix. As such if they push for a Sino-Apache they might suddenly have those who push for such (like your self) suddenly saying...
    “China needs to move on from the Z-xx and start work on a High speed attack flyer”


    855822CE-C2A1-4479-AE01-4C99805C44FA.png
    Boeing is already wind tunneling this in models.
    At this point it’s better to take a wait and see spend the resources on Z20 which has long been in the works but seems to finally be moving, maturing and improving Z10. Fielding Z19 scout units and working out just what it feels it needs for its Rotary wing attack field. Take its time decide by its doctrine if it’s better served by a dedicated heavy attack chopper or a Z20 gun ship (see S70 Battle-hawk) or a attack turboprop or something totally different.
     
    #2464 TerraN_EmpirE, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  5. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Senior Member
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    A compound aircraft might happen. But the rigid rotor technology seems to have had a lot of historical problems. To be honest I don't know how well they'll get it to work.
     
  6. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    My point is not actually about the compound but the progress.
    That said rigid rotors are more proven today including at least 2 production helicopters.
     
  7. Hendrik_2000
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    Hendrik_2000 Brigadier

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    As to sensor ZeEa5KPul he already answer your question I don't have to repeat it

    As to infrared red suppression how do you know that they don't have it There is many way to suppress the infra red signature And China do know how to mitigate infra red Here is a paper devoted specially to the subject and It is Chinese paper
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1000936114000168

    Fig. 5 shows the lobed mixer-ejector IRS adopted by Turbomeca Dauphin SA365C.7 In Fig. 5, θ denotes the azimuthal angle, R1 is relative infrared intensity. Evaluation tests showed that this kind of infrared suppressors was of high dilution, low turbinebackpressure, low aerodynamic drag, compactness, and light weight. It reduced infrared signal/noise ratio in the 3–5 μm band by 39 dB, with an acceptable power losslimited in 2.5% at hover IGE power.

    [​IMG]

    Recently, to precisely simulate temperature distributions on the helicopter airframe and in the exhaust plume, the effects of rotor downwash were considered by Pan et al.57, 58, 59, 60 in three-dimensional flow and heat transfer calculation under helicopter hovering. A rotor downwash model was presented to define the external boundary of rotor downwash. Fig. 14 shows the effect of rotor downwash on the exhaust plume. The exhaust plume takes on strong downwards deflection to the rear fuselage, as well as deflection to the rotor’s rotationaldirection, under the action of rotor downwash. These deflections are especially obvious under higher rotor downwash. When the exhaust is ejected upward, the exhaust plume could come into collision with the rear fuselage, and pumping capacity of the exhaust system is weakened a little. While the exhaust is ejected in oblique or lateral directions, the exhaust plumes do not come into collision with the rear fuselage, and pumping capacities of the exhaust system are somewhat enhanced. The exhaust direction shows significant influence on the infrared radiation distribution, as seen in Fig. 15. In this figure, Vdownwash denotes the downwash velocity. When the exhaust is ejected in the oblique direction, the infrared radiation intensity detected from the top direction is almost the same as that from the lateral direction. While the exhaust is ejected upward or sideward, strong infrared radiation occurs at some viewing directions.

    [​IMG]
    1. Download full-size image
    Fig. 14
    [​IMG]
    1. Download full-size image
     
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  8. Deino
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    Deino Brigadier
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    Fitting nicely to my new book on the PLA Army Aviation, for the first time the Z-10A’s engine was shown in a CCTV report. Also seen in this video are the WZ-8C (510 kW Z-19), the WZ-9 (≈ 1000kW Z-10A) and the Russian TV3-117VM (1618kW Mi-17/171)

    Images CCTV via Huitong/CMA

    Z-10A engine + Z-9 + Mi-171 engines - 1.jpg Z-10A engine + Z-9 + Mi-171 engines - 2.jpg
     
  9. asif iqbal
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    asif iqbal Brigadier

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    Z19 engine looks tiny
     
  10. PanAsian
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    PanAsian Major

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    I think the facts only support that the PLA agrees with many PLA-watchers including myself that the Z-10 is underarmored.
     
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