WWII World Armed Forces

On a side note: 20-25 million Chinese were killed in WW2, compared to 6 million Jews. Of course, to the West, Chinese casualties are irrelevant.

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Japan attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor because the U.S. was about to sanction oil. The oil sanctions were because Japan refused to end its war in China. American entry into the war ended up saving China. Moreover, the China theater tied down ~3/4 of the Japanese army throughout the war, making American victory much easier than if they had to fight all of Japan alone. Give credit where credit is due: both China and America fought hard to defeat Japan, and both needed the other in the Pacific theater.

American history textbooks tend to underplay the Asian theater, but that's because it's far away, a totally different civilization, and most Americans are descended from Europeans. It's natural that Americans in the 1930s and decades since would pay more attention to Europe than Asia. Europe was the center of the world for the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries in terms of industry, science, technology, and military power.

China in the 1930s was not a great power. Germany, the British Empire, the French Empire, the USSR, the United States, and Imperial Japan were great powers. A great power war involves great powers on opposite sides, so that's why historians count 1939 as the start of World War II because with Germany invasion of Poland, the UK and France declared war on Germany. The Second Sino-Japanese War was one great power beating up on then getting bogged down in a minor power.

Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

AssassinsMace said:

Given the cries for China especially the military to be transparent from Republicans and Democrats I would say the story tends to be true. Every other angle I hear to the contrary is much like when I hear my friend's kid tell me that Navy Seals are in every country around the world. I've posted before about seeing this former CIA official interviewed who wrote a book about CIA failures. Some of his stories had to do with China during the 50s and 60s. China seems to have a very effective counter intelligence. Did you know that all of the Tibetan insurgents that the CIA trained that were sent into China during the Cold War have never been heard from again? And the stories have to have some validity because the CIA has final approval when their exploits are exposed to the public by their own people.

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Germany found out that China already had a very good counter-espionage effort during the , because it became impossible to hire Chinese security forces who knew the turf. These experiences dissuaded the colonial powers from too far incursions into China that could have resulted in an economic drain like the one enacted upon India. Seems like the Germans mostly left recipes for the and a very bad memory, including the infamous that was going to haunt us all over. All this could likely have been done without a shot fired, butgoing military was en vogue and the best chance for bitching great powers to do something together instead of the culminations of WWI and WWII that were to follow.
China was during one of their weakest hours acknowledged as a shrewd and capable enemy on the espionage frontline and the usual narrative understates the modernization of armed forces that was being worked out. Subsequent failures resulted in an organizational overhaul - the very pragmatic Chinese outlook is likely a result - that was accelerated by continuous enemy incursions, like the Japanese invasion. A lot of people died in China, like in the Soviet Union and other parts of the world. In China this shock served to achieve the current status of China by throwing much overboard, possibly too much, but the ship got going again. Many of the dead did fight with all available means for something and others were killed by the occupiers, a reason more to deny them the ability to implement their intentions.
Do you want to blame people that they know all about cowboys and indians and nothing about the old kingdom of Silla? It might be frustrating from a Chinese POV that your part in WWII seems forgotten, although the Chinese UN seat is a permanent reminder of recognition of this contribution. Japan and Germany, despite their decades of influence and wealth, still long for such a seat and all its implications and recognition. Honestly, if Pearl Harbour wasn't a film, who in Europe would know about it? Make a good film about Chinese WWII resistance for a contemporary Western audience and get rid of this perceived problem. The might be a good entrance to give a hand in mutual understanding (the old Soviets did multiple films of this kind). is a typical example of another one trying his hand at an Albanian alliance.
See the positive aspect, see China as the culmination hub of multiple traditional grids in various fields that was defended mostly intact and reclaims their economic power position now, plus advancing the military power projection capability and the global connections again.

So what's new about the fighter aircraft?

Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

Geographer said:

Japan attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor because the U.S. was about to sanction oil. The oil sanctions were because Japan refused to end its war in China. American entry into the war ended up saving China. ...

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The Sino-Japanese War began in 1931, the U.S oil sanction to Japan was ten years later in 1941, don't foget that! Americans tend to burnish their image when talking about their entry into the war, American declared war on Japan JUST becauce Japan attacked the U.S, NOTHING ELSE.

Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

rmvbmaker said:

The Sino-Japanese War began in 1931, the U.S oil sanction to Japan was ten years later in 1941, don't foget that! Americans tend to burnish their image when talking about their entry into the war, American declared war on Japan JUST becauce Japan attacked the U.S, NOTHING ELSE.

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That might not be true though. Remember the conspiracy theory that Pearl Harbor could have been avoided but the US government let it happen so that the US could get involved in the war? Whether that's true, one thing probably can be acertained is that entering WWII, especially entering that late, suits the USA's best interests: It became the leader of the Western world after the war, at the least possible cost (relatively speaking, of course).

Then again, I am of the belief that nations are like individual human beings or individual human races, each will have its unique historic role, Karmic or not, to play. Some play the winners, some lossers. Some play leaders, some followers. And they do this in turn. So again, all empires will fall one day, and even small dogs will have their day some day. Japan is such a midget of a nation, but look how it overwhelmed its giant neighbor and wreaked havoc on a giant on the other side of the Earth!

Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

Player99 said:

That might not be true though. Remember the conspiracy theory that Pearl Harbor could have been avoided but the US government let it happen so that the US could get involved in the war? Whether that's true, one thing probably can be acertained is that entering WWII, especially entering that late, suits the USA's best interests: It became the leader of the Western world after the war, at the least possible cost (relatively speaking, of course).

Then again, I am of the belief that nations are like individual human beings or individual human races, each will have its unique historic role, Karmic or not, to play. Some play the winners, some lossers. Some play leaders, some followers. And they do this in turn. So again, all empires will fall one day, and even small dogs will have their day some day. Japan is such a midget of a nation, but look how it overwhelmed its giant neighbor and wreaked havoc on a giant on the other side of the Earth!

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OT
A small bit of history then.
The BBC told me many years ago that USN sent a sloop in late 1941 along Japanese possessions in the Pacific to try to draw fire. When war broke out she escaped to Perth, Australia.
In a book about the history of flattops ( or only US flattops? ) I read some forty years ago it said that the four carriers in Pearl Harbor left on Dec. 4 and that next day the crews were told that war with Japan was about to break out and that they would sink any Japanese ship they saw.
And last - the Japanese aircraft on their way to Pearl Harbor were detected by US radar which closed down however at 8 am as it was an experimental radar and it was time to go to church on Sunday. Besides it was thought these were B-17 bombers that were expected and these should later be able to attack enemy ships at sea - a tactic that was entirely unsuccessful. I'm not able to fit this into a conspiracy theory but others are.

Perhaps someone might move this historical sub thread to the history thread

Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

Player99 said:

That might not be true though. Remember the conspiracy theory that Pearl Harbor could have been avoided but the US government let it happen so that the US could get involved in the war? Whether that's true, one thing probably can be acertained is that entering WWII, especially entering that late, suits the USA's best interests: It became the leader of the Western world after the war, at the least possible cost (relatively speaking, of course

"Poppy cock my dear boy, " in my best 50s British accent. It astounds me that bloviators seem to have a far greater audience than those wishing to tell the truth, and conspiracy theorists love to tell these tales, that the less cultured among us find so titilating. It really seems as simple as the simple trying to discredit the wisdom of the wise, to give ear to this nonsense gaurantees its propagation in the culture, as the simple are simply misled by the stories they "want" to hear. I guess it would be to much to ask that we not propigate nonsense here on Sino D?

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Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

delft said:

OT
A small bit of history then.
The BBC told me many years ago that USN sent a sloop in late 1941 along Japanese possessions in the Pacific to try to draw fire. When war broke out she escaped to Perth, Australia.
In a book about the history of flattops ( or only US flattops? ) I read some forty years ago it said that the four carriers in Pearl Harbor left on Dec. 4 and that next day the crews were told that war with Japan was about to break out and that they would sink any Japanese ship they saw.
And last - the Japanese aircraft on their way to Pearl Harbor were detected by US radar which closed down however at 8 am as it was an experimental radar and it was time to go to church on Sunday. Besides it was thought these were B-17 bombers that were expected and these should later be able to attack enemy ships at sea - a tactic that was entirely unsuccessful. I'm not able to fit this into a conspiracy theory but others are.

Perhaps someone might move this historical sub thread to the history thread

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The US were not sure about the necessary readiness level and not yet well organized - typical military situation of many nations. They tried this and that, but didn't field anything coherent. There was a picket screen out to defend Pearl Harbour, but they missed the carriers and found the subs.

Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

Air Force Brat said:

Player99 said:

That might not be true though. Remember the conspiracy theory that Pearl Harbor could have been avoided but the US government let it happen so that the US could get involved in the war? Whether that's true, one thing probably can be acertained is that entering WWII, especially entering that late, suits the USA's best interests: It became the leader of the Western world after the war, at the least possible cost (relatively speaking, of course

"Poppy cock my dear boy, " in my best 50s British accent. It astounds me that bloviators seem to have a far greater audience than those wishing to tell the truth, and conspiracy theorists love to tell these tales, that the less cultured among us find so titilating. It really seems as simple as the simple trying to discredit the wisdom of the wise, to give ear to this nonsense gaurantees its propagation in the culture, as the simple are simply misled by the stories they "want" to hear. I guess it would be to much to ask that we not propigate nonsense here on Sino D?

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Brat，if the Peal Harbor conspiracy theory doesn't hold, then would you agree that the USA would have sat through WWII, or joined even later? ... Of course, this conspiracy theory, to the peoples of the world, would carry a totally different meaning from the one regarding 911.

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Re: Shenyang new generation fighter

The US had been inciting Japan for a long time - American volunteer group in China. The US ambition was a Japanese declaration of war. They likely had some idea about Japanese concepts of striking first and telling the enemy later that they were at war, but ethnic prejudice, unimaginativeness and bureaucratic inertia, all typical for peacetime military institutions, certainly played their role. It was a gamble and hard to predict because striking Pearl Harbour could as well have been an early doom for the Japanese. Having large warships travelling in the water required prodigious amounts of fuel - officers worry a lot about logistics and availability of flight- or sea-hours of vehicles.
Not all "information" in war and peace is true and helpful, it's often cleverly falsified and misguiding. In the aftermath, everyone knows better, but under contemporary conditions it was usually very difficult to judge right. You can see the US decision from a POV of imperfect information as a decent performance.