Would it be difficult for China to invade and occupy NK?

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
And i will again point to the example of Israel and Hezbollah. the militia group was able to withstand the Israelis for weeks and forced a ceased fire. Hezbollah is about several thousands men strong, compare the the several hundreds of thousands of professional NK troop.
China would not fight the N Koreans as the IDF fought in Lebannon. Or, for that matter, like the US is doing in Iraq.

You would see a much more intense warfare where any civilian areas abetting or supporting hostile forces would simply be leveled...irrespective of civilian casualties, like World War II was fought. Then, after the complete defeat, any rebuilding would occur. So, in that sense, I personally do not believe that such a comparison holds in a battle over N. Korea by China.

My own personal feeling is that the Chinese government will certainely not invade or even seriously slap them too hard. They are too valuable to China now as the bad cop who is tweeking the US and West's nose and thus allowing them to gather very valuable political and military intelligence. Good cop (China) - bad cop (N. Korea) in my own opinion.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
You guys are thinking like Clauswitz, not Sun Tzu. Historically, what China has done when it needs to restore control over the penninsula is team up with a warlord and usually that is enough to overawe the other warlords to capitulate. And then China would install the ally as King of Korea / Chosun / Gaoli.

In other words, the best way is to find someone on the inside of the regime who is willing to take over from Kim Jong Il. If and when China tries to restore control over Pyongyang, there will be a coup resulting in a more pliable regime.
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
Another reason why China would not attack NK is that NK would retaliate by firing Nodong/Taepodong 1 missiles at Chinese cities and these may well have chemical warheads. Beijing and most of Manchuria are well within their range (is Shanghai?), this would of course provoke a terrible retaliation by the PLA but as the NK regime would be destroyed in any war they'd probably conclude that they had nothing to lose, China would win the war, but it would have sustained high civilian caualties and it's economic progress would have been set back years if not decades.

The more I think about, it seems likely that senior NK generals and officials are bound to have been recruited by Chinese intelligence, if it looks like Kim Jong-Il is likely to set off an arms race then these people will be encouraged by China to stage a coup d'etat. An NK still under the control of the Korean Workers Party, but with a leader who'll do exactly what Beijing tells him to do would suit China perfectly.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
the best way is to find someone on the inside of the regime who is willing to take over from Kim Jong Il. If and when China tries to restore control over Pyongyang, there will be a coup resulting in a more pliable regime.
Agreed...this is the most likely event in the case where the PRC wanted to change the NK regime.

I personally believe that such conditions, in reality, already exist and the the PRC already has Kim on a rather tight leash. I believe the PRC is benefitting from the NKorean antics and will continue to use him as the bad cop, while they play good cop, to milk as much intel, embarassement, and benefit from it as possible. When they reach a point where the benefit is outweighed by any negative, they will truly pull Kim up short.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Ok here's few things that come in to my mind...

firstly...

NK soldiers can't be that well trained, most of them are conscripts

As a former conscript myself, I found that sort of comment very absurd and even offensive. Conscription as a system have nothing to do with the level of training. There are several cases where armies with coscription systems have prooven to be better trained, motivated and skilled than their opponent proffesional armies. Only thing that the conscription affects is the overall military budget and with NKs case, I doupt it would have any difference to the general fighting ability wheter there are conscripts or proffesional soldiers behind the outdated equipment.

What matters is the motivation. We really don't know just how good it is in the NK as hardly anyone from the outside world have ever had the change monitor it. I personally belive that it's far more higher from those estimations presented in this thread earlier. The closed sosiety with practically no channels to outside world can make quite remarkable things to the general peoples thinking. To regular Norht koreans the outside invasion might be as a shock as if the people from Mars would suddenly attack earth...and the reaction to that would be quite similar as well; You fight to your death against these alien invators...So I quess the moral is actually quite high. But will it last? Thats another thing and we will return for that question later on...

If the PLA were to invade, overcoming resistance would be an easy job.

Even more stubidier comment than the last one. If the undenyably greatest power at the moment, USA is itself afraid to attack DPRK, what makes you think that China can do it with her left hand??

I'm sure all of you are aware the rough estimations of military power of North Korea. The quality is low and severly outdated but the quantity is huge. There are, as someone already said, a million mens in the arms. And I belive that their fighting spirit is at high standpoint. So in the paper it looks quite ernourmous task, don't you think? So now is the time to look the attacker, China...

...It doesen't require much time to figure out that the PLA is actually suprisingly similar as it's opponent in this hypotethical scenario. High quantity, but rather low quality. Yeas, the spearhead of PLAs latest equipment is far sharper than the DPRKs, even closing the level of other great powers like USA and Russia. But the vast masses are actually remarkably similar to the DPRKs troops. And we are now still talking about equipment solely. How about doctrines, strategies and tactics?

First we look DPRK...
It's main task is without a doupt to attack South Korea and thus it's main forces are located in the south borders. But don't let that fool you, troops moving in such small country isen't so hard task and adopting defensive warfare is quite easy, it's the natural way of fighting and is actually far more easier to adjust to than the other way around (from defensive force to offensive one) History has shown it working several times. With the huge ammount of mens, the ability to have reserve flanks after reserve flanks (eg. area defence doctrine) is quite appealing. It would effectively cut down the ability from the opressor to conduct deep strikes to the heart of the defenders and thus trying to gain advantage. The abcent of modern technology isen't great consern at all, in defence warfare it's almoust irrelevant. To defeat the DPRK is only possiple with using the US style "new blitzkrieg" type of tactics which is depentable form undisturped communications and co-operation of all branches participating to the attack. Is PLA at the moment able to conduct this type of warfare??....

....No
Like I said earlier the vast masses of PLA is still desperetly outdated and based on the idea of "people's war" which equals mass casualities and unability to perform any realistic military manuvres in modern battlefield. Just look at the general strcuture of PLA: main unit is still infatry division which mobility ends to trucks and leather personal carriers (boots, mean walk) Support units relies on old generation towed artillery which abilty to cope the demands of highspeed modern warfare is basicly as good as standart infatry soldier supposed to walk the destination...nil...
There is improvements in the PLA structure, the introduction of the mechanised brigades for example and the relatively good spearhead of tanktroops. Tough even the spearhead is lacking compared to the setted standarts. The developtment of artillery haven't walked the same line as the tank development. There are only prototypes of modern type of SP guns being introduced and the towed artillery is even in worst condition. There's no APU fitted guns in service nor computerized aiming or navigating devices. The "weakest link" principle aplies the operational effectivity of armed unit like fish swims in the ocean; The division or brigade is as good as it's weakest fraktion. It wont help you if your tanks are state-of-the-art if your artillery is about two generation behind.

I'm not going to go too deeply to the other branches of war, like airpower and naval forces. The PLAAF certainly have both quantitical and quality advantage over DPRK, but it's not able to perform such a large scale air campaing as required in this sort of conflict.

So is that sufficient for the invasion of DPRK? How good is the interactivity and joint operation of these forces? How well is the overall idea of combined arms- type of warfighting adopted in the army?

At the moment PLA is noway near the level that it could perform such a huge offensive war against such a potent opponent as DPRK. In fact I strongly belive that not even the all mighty USA and it's huge military power could do it. Invading countries isen't easy task and if the opponent is acutally fighting back (unlike in some of the latest wars) it's basicly what it's supposed to be all along...a war...

I said something about the morale of the DPRKs troops...about could it hold after the agression starts?
The "blitzkrieg" type of warfare that USA and it's allies performed in the first gulf war was major factor for the morale to break down among the Iraqi troops. The effective destruction of communications and the huge speed just mentaly overhelmed the enemy. As the PLA is clearly not able to conduct that type of warfare, I doupt the morale of the opponent would denegrate. In fact when the attacker is facing dificulties, the morale of the defenders usually rise. It gives the defender a hope that the enemy is debeatable and urges them to fight harder.


....but....Like i've said millions and millions times now, there is no need to drop ash upon you or letting the little dragon inside you to burst out in front of my obinions I've just maded. They are only my own assumptions based on the facts (all facts, not just those you wish to see) and my own comprehension of modern warfare. You are free to disagree and in fact I would like to hear anyones points if they have come to somewhat different conclusion. Also I strongly belive that the chinese military might is rapidly going for the direction where it may be able to perform such a operation like this "DPRK invasion"...it just isen't there yet...;)
 

DPRKPTboat

Junior Member
Gollevainen said:
As a former conscript myself, I found that sort of comment very absurd and even offensive. Conscription as a system have nothing to do with the level of training. There are several cases where armies with coscription systems have prooven to be better trained, motivated and skilled than their opponent proffesional armies. Only thing that the conscription affects is the overall military budget and with NKs case, I doupt it would have any difference to the general fighting ability wheter there are conscripts or proffesional soldiers behind the outdated equipment.

Ok, I'm sorry if I offended you with my comment about conscripts. Taking in mind what you said, I'lll retract that comment. But I think it is pretty much undoubtable that the KPA is no match for the PLA in terms of equipment, even though the PLA is behind the U.S. Army. But as you say, any country will defend itself against aggressors, so I guess the Chinese would meet quite fierce resistance, but that alone can't win you the war. If China and NK were to got to war, China would almost certainly win in the invasion stage. But insurgency during the occupation stage would be a major problem. We might not know what NK is truly capable of, but note that we have heard from defecting members of the military that ammunition shortages are common, as are fuel shortages. This would be a major disadavantage to the DPRK. But invasion would also be a bad idea in itself - as NeutralZone said, Kim does have missiles that can reach China's East coast, and they could be tipped with Bio/Chem weapons - but then NK would risk an equivalent reaction from China - say - a Nuclear attack.
 
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Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Don't worry, artillerist skin is quite tough;)

Anyway my point was that PLA is still too far being mature enouhg power asset to be able to conduct an operation in a scale such as the invasion of Norht Korea. The defenders ability in paper is irrelevant as long as it has even the slightest potential to perform active resistance.
 

Inst

Captain
Also, NK has about 500 some 60km range artillery pieces capable of hitting Seoul. If NK knows it's going to lose, it might as well try to attack South Korea and kill a huge bunch of civilians while it's at it. Then the resultant "United Korea" will not be neutral, but will blame China for the disaster.
 

Sun Tsu

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Never mind the political difficulties.
Mainly the military issues, like terrain, weather, logistics, that sort of thing.
What would it take for China to take NK? How much planning, what staging areas, how many troops and planes?
I would think that China would have to coordinate with the US and SK. Perhaps China can take out the NK military and political leaders?

This report states PLA is conducting ant-chemical drills on the border. They do this often?

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China would have no problem taking NK it's just the ramification of bringing SK into it. NK would attack SK just because and start a regional conflict that will drag US and Japan into it.

Also is China ready to take care of NK for awhile since it's a bankrupt country and people are in dire poverty or are they willing to unite it with SK? Too many
variables to think of.

Long time no post. :)
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Also, NK has about 500 some 60km range artillery pieces capable of hitting Seoul. If NK knows it's going to lose, it might as well try to attack South Korea and kill a huge bunch of civilians while it's at it. Then the resultant "United Korea" will not be neutral, but will blame China for the
disaster.

nonsequitor.

NK arty attacks SK, SK blames China? Sheesh. Get real.

Also, it's quite sad you buy into the western propaganda that the NK regime is crazy. There's no point in shelling Seoul if NK is going to lose. The only thing it achieves is war crimes tribunal and a place of infamy in history, killing your brothers and sisters.
 
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