WW II Historical Thread, Discussion, Pics, Videos

Lezt

Junior Member
That really does not address the short coming.

But first the supposed difference between turret centric and masthead centric fire control:

In WWII naval fire controls, there are 3 components:

1. Director - which the officer in charge of gunnery use to designate targets to his guns

2. Range finder - Which receives instructions from the director on which target to look at, and determine the range to that target, as well as the range to any shell splashes that lands around the target.

3. Fire control computer - which receives continuous bearing input from the director, and continuous range input from the range finder, and computes a mathematical model of the absolute future movements of the target. It also receives inputs from the ship's own compass, knotmeters, etc, to compute a mathematical model of the absolute future movements of own ship. It also receive input from artifical horizon reference to determine the ship's pitch and roll, and generate a continuous stream of instructions to the gun turret on how to achieve correct lead angle and elevation to compensate for ship's own role and pitch to hit the target.

A director and range finder could really be anywhere. In all battleships of WWII, there are directors and range finders high up in the superstructure for primary control in long range battles, where a high location ensures line of sight over the curvature of the earth to enemy, and there are backup directors and range finders in each of the main turrets, so each turret can undertake local control of itself, or function as backup controler for all the other turrets. In a pinch, it is also possible to use the directors and range finders for secondary battery to feed the fire control computer for the main guns.

What is more, any director can pair with any range finder as situation requires to feed data into the fire control computer. They don't have to be next to each other. This is true for all WWII battleships, Japanese, German, British, or American. If all the main gun range finders were out of commission, but a main gun director is still in service, the main main gun director can pair up with the range finder in a secondary turret to continue to feed useful information to the fire control computer.

It so happens the British and Americans believed very long distance battles where the enemy is visible only from the masthead (30Kkm+) is unlikely to be decisive. So there was no need to accept the added top weight of putting a heavy long baseline range finder so high up in the superstructure. That's why on British and American battleships, while there are directors high up in the superstructure to ensure a panaramic view of the battle so targets can be better chosen, there was only a short baseline light weight range finder up top. The reason is the belief that at decisive battle range, the enemy will be visible from the turret and a big range finder in the turret would be much better protected than a big range finder at the top of the mast.

The Germans and the Japanese, on the other hand, thought the battle could in fact be decided at very long range with plunging fire, where the enemy would only be visible from the masthead. This is why their battleship puts their longest baseline range finders high up on top of their conning towers, to ensure best possible fire control input when the enemy is still hidden behind the curvature of the earth when viewed from turret level.

How each side's expectation corresponded to reality as discovered in WWII is the subject for another discussion. Suffice it to say Japanese pre-war doctrine call for fire to be opened at 34km, but Japanese expectation of hit rates at 30kms turned out to be higher than any that was ever actually achieve in battle condition by any one at 17-19 kms.

But the point here is the general layout of the fire control systems of Japan, Britain, US and Germany wasn't all that different, just different emphasis on range.

Now back to the issue of indexing. The Japanese system is poor simply because if the control needs to be transfered from one director to another, it takes a long time to do it. Furthermore, the new director, if it had already been tracking an enemy target and have been feeding data into the fire control computer, must now stop, pivot around to point dead ahead or dead astern and weight until all the gun turrets also line up in their neutral positions, before it can be trained back onto the target and begin a new firing solition. So any soliution the firing control computer had been working on it not lost, and it has to start over again. It doesn't matter if the director being transfered from and the one being transdered to is on the masthead, or in one of the turrets.

It also makes it impossible for the Japanese to have different directors simulataneously track different targets and continuously imporve firing solutions to multiple targets at the same time, and switch the entire main battery from one target to another as tactical situation needs. Instead they must split the main battery into several sub battery to simulataenously engage different targets separately.

The Japanese and Germans also emphasized dispersion and redundancy more than British and Americans. The Yamato had no less that 6 different backup main battery directors on her superstructure, one on top of the massive 15m range finder at mast top, two half way up the tower mast on each side, one over rear 10m range finder, and two on either side of the under the 10m range finder tower, in addition to the three in the main turrets, for a total of 9 main battery directors, compared to 5 on British and American battleships.

It is a pity how Yamato was given so many redundant directors to ensure combat effectivess after suffering damage, but adapted a system that made switching from one director to another so laborious and disrupting.

How each side responded to the lessons of war is indeed another very interesting topic; where it is much easier to improve your own systems than to hatch new ones.

I do not believe that the Germans believed in the accurate long range fire; her armor scheme is designed much more to resist low trajectory fire than plunging fire. ala Denmark Straits, Hood opened fire at around 24 km where Bismark also returned fire; not really very long range per say if the doctrine is to outshoot your enemy at range.

The Japanese did go the all long range route; but that being said, it is only their last 3 battleships that were designed to that specification... basically the only three Yamatos... (and some would claim that Yamato straddled some ships at Taffy 3 at 39 km) i.e. none of the other Japanese are really capable of hitting that far. The Americans.. especially developed the Mark 8 Super heavy shell for the long range plunging fight.. so the lines are really blurred.

Shifting of fire to multiple targets is not as important is academically we would like to believe. If you are fighting other capital ship you would want to concentrate all your guns on that single enemy ship to increase the hit probabilities. If you are fighting smaller cruisers and destroyers; there is always an array of secondary weapons to do that.

Regarding Indexing, the Japanese didn't have automatic indexing and were following the needle. You were correct that they used the Vicker's Dyson analytical tables in their older BBs, but they have switched to Argo based synthetical systems that the Americans and Germans were using. What I meant about German automatic indexing is only for elevation and not for training is that the rangefinder gives a range to the computer which gives a firing inclination angle that automatically sets the guns. how much to lead the target require optical adjustments - which is still fine, as the flight time of shells are around 30 seconds to around 20 km, where a 30 knot target would have traveled less than 500 m, or less than twice the length of a battleship; with a dispersion of around 150 m, training is relatively simple to get shells on target.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I think we could also ask ourselves what might have happened had Britain and France stood up to Hitler in the early days of Hitlers rise. A Second World War might have been avoided and would Japan have started a pacific conflict if the European powers had not been defeated.

Well of course but I am always fascinated by what if scenarios and stories.. heck this guy could've prevented it all before it even started!!!!!!

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
How each side responded to the lessons of war is indeed another very interesting topic; where it is much easier to improve your own systems than to hatch new ones.

I do not believe that the Germans believed in the accurate long range fire; her armor scheme is designed much more to resist low trajectory fire than plunging fire. ala Denmark Straits, Hood opened fire at around 24 km where Bismark also returned fire; not really very long range per say if the doctrine is to outshoot your enemy at range.

The Japanese did go the all long range route; but that being said, it is only their last 3 battleships that were designed to that specification... basically the only three Yamatos... (and some would claim that Yamato straddled some ships at Taffy 3 at 39 km) i.e. none of the other Japanese are really capable of hitting that far. The Americans.. especially developed the Mark 8 Super heavy shell for the long range plunging fight.. so the lines are really blurred.

Shifting of fire to multiple targets is not as important is academically we would like to believe. If you are fighting other capital ship you would want to concentrate all your guns on that single enemy ship to increase the hit probabilities. If you are fighting smaller cruisers and destroyers; there is always an array of secondary weapons to do that.

Regarding Indexing, the Japanese didn't have automatic indexing and were following the needle. You were correct that they used the Vicker's Dyson analytical tables in their older BBs, but they have switched to Argo based synthetical systems that the Americans and Germans were using. What I meant about German automatic indexing is only for elevation and not for training is that the rangefinder gives a range to the computer which gives a firing inclination angle that automatically sets the guns. how much to lead the target require optical adjustments - which is still fine, as the flight time of shells are around 30 seconds to around 20 km, where a 30 knot target would have traveled less than 500 m, or less than twice the length of a battleship; with a dispersion of around 150 m, training is relatively simple to get shells on target.


Japanese doctrine called for extreme range fighting long before Yamato. All their old battleships were modified to increase their 14" gun elevation from 20 degrees to 43 degrees in order meet the demands of the doctrine. Their doctrine after 1935 called for the entire battle line, old and new battleships alike, was to open fire at the extreme range of the 14"/45, which was about 35kms. At the same time Japanese estimated their force of old battleships can achieve a hit rate of 10% at 30km which, if true, would justify the doctrine of extreme range fighting. But it was wildly over optimistic based on actual combat experience. WWII battleships with much better guns and dire controls could achieve a hit rate of about 10% in battle conditions only when the range is well under 20km. But nonetheless Nagato and Kongo is thought to have opened fire at 29km with Yamato in Leyte gulf.

German battleships armor scheme were stagnant and didn't evolve much from schemes conceived prior to WWI when fighting was expected to occur at under 13km. But interwar German training, starting with Panzerschiffs, emphasized extreme range gunnery far more than the British, with practices at 35kms+ being routine. German guns were also optimized for flat trajectory at long range.
 
Wow! A short film which documents the Warspite vs Giulio Cesare duel of July 9, 1940 (the longest-ranged hit between moving battleships at sea, 26 thousand yards; the converter says 26000yd = 23774m :) ) is available:
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For the rest, go to
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:)
 

Rutim

Banned Idiot
Wow! A short film which documents the Warspite vs Giulio Cesare duel of July 9, 1940 (the longest-ranged hit between moving battleships at sea, 26 thousand yards; the converter says 26000yd = 23774m :) ) is available:
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For the rest, go to
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:)
There are lots of films from WWII naval battles. Much of that material had never seen publicized in from of 'film chronicles' screened in cinemas. Yamato 30,5-31,5 hit on USS White Planes only saw daylight because of Robert Lundgren work of translating of Japanese and US official documents, film and photos of early engagement made aboard USS Kalinin Bay. That's almost 70 years after the war! The same story goes with battle of Midway where collective view from both fighting sides matched together waited more than 60 years to be put in the form of 'Shattered Sword' written by John Parshall and Anthony Tully. Battle of Surigao Strait? No one really knew how it looked in overall view and the end of Japanese battleships until Anthony Tully translated the recollections of Japanese survivors, looked everything what he could in archives and matched every piece together. How the gunfight between Kirishima and Washington+South Dakota really looked and what happened there? Only became available after Robert Lundgren's analysis of the hits from Kirishima wreck and US damage reports! How many still lies waiting for the real research to throw dated sources like Morrison to the bin trash?

This is USS White Planes hit by the 6 shell salvo from Yamato who only fired it's forward guns in the beginning of the engagement off Samar. Yamato scored a hit which resulted in 'operational sinking' of White Planes as it had to withdraw for repairs 48 hours after Yamato's shell bounced and exploded under her keel.

2ngrce1.jpg

And talking about Leyte - I'm pretty sure that it would be a final naval battle of the war with Japanese finally getting enough oil to bring all their ships around there if the landing operation had happened 2 or 3 weeks later. A final showdown, the greatest naval battle of all times with more than 100 warships of all classes and around 1000 aircrafts fighting on both sides in the same time instead of series of smaller battles!
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Yamato hit on USS White Planes only saw daylight because of Robert Lundgren work of translating of Japanese and US official documents.
Yes...just a simple amazing set of phtots.

I picked this one out, annotated it, and feel it is represents the best of that sequence.


samar-01.jpg


Here is another of a salvo falling one of the escort carriers:


cap16a_mini.jpeg


Hers is an absolutely excellent site about the Yamato and many outstanding photos and a lot of info:

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
Robert lundgren's analysis of the kirishima's sinking reveals to me a certain ignorance or disregard of physics, this suggests to me that his reconstruction of complex events are not as reliably thorough, or as well thought out and well researched, as nicely rendered illustrations in his works might suggest.
 
Robert lundgren's analysis of the kirishima's sinking reveals to me a certain ignorance or disregard of physics, this suggests to me that his reconstruction of complex events are not as reliably thorough, or as well thought out and well researched, as nicely rendered illustrations in his works might suggest.

I just downloaded
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... what did you take issue with, chuck731? (or maybe you referred to another document?) thanks!
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
I just downloaded
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... what did you take issue with, chuck731? (or maybe you referred to another document?) thanks!

The obvious ones:

1. A sinking ship will not retain air or resist implosion much beyond 30-40 meter depth, his assessment that kirishima's landed upside down due to engineering spaces retaining air all the way to the bottom is nonsense.

2. The magazine of kirishima's certainly can't resist crushing until the ship his bottom

3. If the magazine was to explode near the bottom, the drag of water would prevent the formation of any extensive debris field. Judging from the fact any magazine explosion would be diffused and can't impart as much energy to any individual pieces of debris as possesses by a shell fired by a gun, and how long underwater trajectories of shell landing on the sea tend to be, an debris field from underwater magazine explosion near the bottom would likely mostly be retained with 30 meters of the original hull.

4. A dense solid iron anchor chain would almost certainly descend through the water column faster than a flooded hull. So it seems unlikely kirishima's anchor chain could have left the ship at the surface and ended up on top of the wreck.
 
... WWII battleships with much better guns and dire controls could achieve a hit rate of about 10% in battle conditions only when the range is well under 20km. ...

Yes. I just checked a credible source describing the duel of the HMS Warspite with two Italian battleships during the Battle of Calabria on 9 July 1940: between 1553 and 1600 thirteen salvos fired at Guilio Cesare; then the direction changed by 20 degrees and the fire ceased to obtain new firing solution but at that time one of the shells of the last salvo hits heheh; after that, four partial salvos (stern turrets only) fired "at both" Guilio Cesare and Conte di Cavour (Conte di Cavour took over Guilio Cesare). So: 13*8 + 4*4 = 120 shots ... all fired from distances exceeding 20 km.
 
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