Why can't A2A missiles have both?

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skyhawk2005

Banned Idiot
Why can't A2A missiles have both Active Radar and IR?

Why not create a PL8 with SD10?

Such a missile would be impossible to jam or avoid, no? It would have the range of a Radar missile and the lethality of an IR missile.
 

swimmerXC

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I think the ASRAAM and the MICA are both IR and AR...
I guess most reason is because incorporating an IR seeker and AR in it would make the missile big... plus I don't see how effective it can be, for IR you need the "eye" piece to see the IR of planes, but with the AR blocking it, where are they going to put it? If they stick it on the bottom, then wouldn't that affect the aerodynamics of the missile, especially since it seems to pull at least 20gs
 

Wingman

Junior Member
In most fighters I know of, the flight computers are set to dump both flare and chaff when it detects incoming missiles or when the pilots uses the dump countermeasures switch. Generally pilots do not know if a missile coming towards them is AR or IR so the planes are set to dump both. Besides, if the missile had both seekers and they conflict with each other e.g. one got spoofed by a countermeasure and the other still tracking the plane, which seeker should the missile believe?
 

tphuang

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BrotherofSnake said:
The MICA has a radar guided and IR version, but I'm not sure if there's one that employs both guidance systems.
there isn't. You either get the AR version or the IR version.
as for ASRAAM
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, I don't see AR, I'm sorry.

As for why can't A2A have both? what are you going to do? divide the head into 2 halves? One half does IR and one does AR?
 

Totoro

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It is not a problem of lack of technical ability to make such a missile but of economics. seeker and guidance components comprise 80-90% cost of every missile. Sure, perhaps some bits could be shared, like the computer, etc, but cos of the integration of two seekers would probably null those savings. In the end you'd still get roughly two times more expensive missile. And probably slightly bigger, yes. I am very sure studies have been done and they have proven the doubled cost would simply not justify the advantage, at least not on a smaller, comparatively cheaper missile like AAM. SAMs on the other hand, might be a different story.

Fitting two seekers has already been done though, the new standard missile in use with USN has passive radar guidance coupled with an IR seeker. In its case, the IR seeker has been sort of hacked on the head of the missile, sticking out of the side of it. I guess they found a way to compensate for that little bit of obstructed airflow. Another way to do it would be putting the IR seeker on the tip of the missile, on the gymbal if you wish, and then make a ring of radar reciever modules around it, little further back.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Totoro said:
Fitting two seekers has already been done though, the new standard missile in use with USN has passive radar guidance coupled with an IR seeker. Another way to do it would be putting the IR seeker on the tip of the missile, on the gymbal if you wish, and then make a ring of radar reciever modules around it, little further back.
It is obvious that the IR seeker and radar seeker cannot be turned on at the same time, because in war-conditions they are likely to contradict each other.

Anyway, even if they do not contradict each other, they cannot complement each other either, as only one of the 2 systems is sufficient to guide the missile towards the target.

The Arrow 2 missile of Israel has this technology :

The missile has a dual mode seeker with a passive infrared seeker for the tracking of tactical ballistic missiles and an active radar seeker used to home on air breathing targets at low altitudes.

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The advantage of turning the radar seeker at the end in this case is to home-on ramjet targets that are cruising at a low altitude. It may be that the heat signatures at this stage may be insufficient.

The example of the USN missile as mentioned above, is the Raytheon AM-2MR Block 3, whose details are as follows:

SM-2MR Block III introduced an improved MK 45 MOD 9 TDD (Target Detecting Device) for better performance against low-altitude targets. Block III A has a new MK 125 warhead with heavier grain explosive, and Block III B (for Aegis/VLS only) incorporates an MHIP (Missile Homing Improvement Program) combined radar/IR seeker for terminal homing. The IR sensor is in a side fairing of the missile. The MHIP seeker was also intended for the cancelled AIM/RIM-7R Sparrow missile. The designation RIM-66K applies to Tartar system missiles (RIM-66K-1 Block III, RIM-66K-2 Block III A), RIM-66L is the Aegis missile (RIM-66L-1 Block III, RIM-66L-2 Block III A), and RIM-66M is the Aegis missile for the MK 41 VLS (RIM-66M-1 Block III, RIM-66M-2 Block III A, RIM-66M-5 Block III B). Block III production began in 1988, with the Block III A following in 1991. Blocks III A and B are the current production versions.

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A recent BMD missile project called Aegis BMD Block 2004 also has similar technology :

In FY03, the operational robustness of the Aegis BMD Block 2004 test program was enhanced by increased operational realism in the test strategy.
some important operational scenarios remain untested by the end of the Block 2004 test program. These include multiple simultaneous engagements and separating targets. Development and integration of critical technologies pertaining to threat discrimination (e.g., AWS discrimination logic, radar and infrared seeker upgrades) and missile propulsion (e.g., kinetic warhead divert system, SM-3 booster propulsion) could improve operational capability as they are introduced in Block 2004 and subsequent upgrades.

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RedMercury

Junior Member
Tracking problems get easier in general with more information, even if the information is more noisy. As long as you model the noise correctly, any extra, independent information is better than none. But if you don't model the noise correctly, it may be detrimental. Sensor fusion is a well studied machine learning/computer vision topic, so that's definately not the bottleneck.
What can and can't be done is not so obvious.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
skyhawk2005 said:
I don't see why a missle can't have two heads. or maybe one head but two "eyes".

If you made the missle more oval or rectangular(not a rectangle though) shapped, I guess you could fit the seekers side by side. Of course, the complicated part comes when designing the guidance to know when to use one or the other.
 
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