Whats the future of Flankers in plaaf

kunmingren

Junior Member
Hi, new member here. Since so many of the posts state that j-10 is superior to flanker, and in addition j-10 has ground attack capability, are the chinese airforce still wanting to aquire more flankers, either importing them from russia or
building them domestically.
 

tphuang

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kunmingren said:
Hi, new member here. Since so many of the posts state that j-10 is superior to flanker, and in addition j-10 has ground attack capability, are the chinese airforce still wanting to aquire more flankers, either importing them from russia or
building them domestically.
depending on who you ask, J-10 is not necessarily superior to flanker. Now, personally I think it is superior, but many people do not. Now, the reason why J-10 would be superior to flankers is that it uses superior avionics/weapon suites than the flankers that were imported from the Russians. We know that J-10s did well enough in past encounters with flankers that China is no longer ordering Russian flankers nor is it getting more J-11A kits from the Russians. Also, we know of a project called J-11B that will utilize the same set family of avionics/weapon suite as J-10, so a large debate is which one will be better. We haven't heard of any engagement between the two parties yet. We do know that flanker's advantage in payload and range could make it a more ideal platform for a fighter-bomber (kind of like su-34/F-15E). And also, it seems to be the most likely candidate to go on the carrier.

So, to answer your question, China will build more domestically, but will most likely not order any more from the Russians (there is a possibility that su-33s will be ordered for the navy, but the air force is concentrating on J-10 and J-11B). As for production rate, it's most likely low compared to J-10.
 

googeler

New Member
Saying that J-10 is superior to the Flanker or vice-versa is childish. It's like comparing a 4x4 Jeep with a two-door sportscar.
They are in different classes, the Flanker is a heavy fighter, while J-10 is light to medium.
The Su-27s and J-11A are basically interceptors (with some limited A2G capability)
The Su-30 MKK/MKK2 are sort of like F-15E, heavy strike planes with good
A2A capability
The J-10 is intended as a smaller multirole plane. It will never have the range, weapon payload and combat endurance of the Su-30.

Of course it can outmanouver the Su, but that doesn't mean it's better because, as I said earlier they are in different classes, envisioned for different roles.
Think about the hi-lo mix (just like the US doctrine). If you have 300 heavy strike planes (Su-30/F-15E) you need 1000-1200 light multirole planes to complement and support the big ones in combat.
The Chinese already have some 300 Flankers, only some 100 true multirole capable, and some 100 J-10 which have only A2A and dumb bomb capability right now.
What's next? IMO:
1. probably the other 200 Su will also be upgraded for precision A2G work.
2. the other 100 Su left in the license contract will have substantial quantity of Chinese-made avionics, and capability to carry Chinese weapons
3. massive numbers of J-10 will be built, while continuously upgrading their capabilities (precision A2G, antiship...)
 

crobato

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After a one year suspension, J-11 production resumed around mid to summer of 2005. However, they didn't order kits from Sukhoi anymore but ordered engines and some avionics stuff direct from Russian manufacturers. I believe China is trying to finish the remainder of the J-11/J-11A contract (200 planes?) before it moves to J-11B. I believe that a number of J-11B prototypes are probably being tested in the CFTC base near Xian. Google Earth has managed to capture a number of J-11s located in a base northwest of China in the desert.

China's planes to upgrade the existing Su-27s and J-11s are hazy, but at least one clear picture has appeared, tha being their engines might be upgraded in power when their next periodic overhaul comes thanks to kits provided by the Russians which will upgrade the engines from the AL-31F standard to the FM-1 standard (125,000kg to 132,000kg). Already it appears that a number of J-11s have their radars upgraded to fire the R-77 but not with precision AG weapons.
 

tphuang

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googeler said:
Saying that J-10 is superior to the Flanker or vice-versa is childish. It's like comparing a 4x4 Jeep with a two-door sportscar.

They are in different classes, the Flanker is a heavy fighter, while J-10 is light to medium.
but you can say that certain plane is superior in certain roles
The Su-27s and J-11A are basically interceptors (with some limited A2G capability)
The Su-30 MKK/MKK2 are sort of like F-15E, heavy strike planes with good
A2A capability
The J-10 is intended as a smaller multirole plane. It will never have the range, weapon payload and combat endurance of the Su-30.
su-27/J-11 like F-15A, mkk like F-15E (unfortunately, very early version of E)
As for range, weapon payload and combat endurance, we don't know exactly right now. We are assuming that flankers do have edge in those areas due to its larger internal fuel tank and such. We have the figures of mkk in certain mission profiles, but we don't with J-10. Even JF-17 has longer combat radius than su-30 with all of its external fuel tanks loaded (1800 km).
 

kunmingren

Junior Member
thanks for the info. one more question. when crobato says that after china finishes the remainder of the licensing contract, they will move on to j-11 B. does that imply that china can build su-27 without any licensing agreement after current one expire?
 
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AssassinsMace

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Doesn't the J-11B still require kits from Russia? Or is it a fighter where all parts are produced in China? If so there's still some sort of licensing agreement with Russia, right? But I do remember seeing J-11B wind tunnel models with slight design differences. Is that the case if true being it's a Chinese design on the Su27s?
 
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adeptitus

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crobato said:
After a one year suspension, J-11 production resumed around mid to summer of 2005. However, they didn't order kits from Sukhoi anymore but ordered engines and some avionics stuff direct from Russian manufacturers. I believe China is trying to finish the remainder of the J-11/J-11A contract (200 planes?) before it moves to J-11B. I believe that a number of J-11B prototypes are probably being tested in the CFTC base near Xian. Google Earth has managed to capture a number of J-11s located in a base northwest of China in the desert.

Hello,

This is news to me. Do you have any links to articles that specify the J-11 production/assembly has been resumed?
 

tphuang

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adeptitus said:
Hello,

This is news to me. Do you have any links to articles that specify the J-11 production/assembly has been resumed?
my personal opinion is that the assembly never stopped. It just happened that the kit deliveries stopped. SAC probably still had 25 to 30 kits that it had not used up.
 

crobato

Colonel
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adeptitus said:
Hello,

This is news to me. Do you have any links to articles that specify the J-11 production/assembly has been resumed?

We certainly know from KANWA and Jane's [pls don't ask me again for links and articles that you can only obtain through paid subscription] that China has reordered another large batch of engines as well as an order for the IRSTs. It is interesting to know that the J-11 uses the more advanced IRST system found in the Su-30s and Su-35s (greater range, allows for laser targeting with LGBs) than the standard IRST basic with the Su-27.

However, I have not seen any large order for radars which leads me to suspect that the new J-11 batches isn't exactly J-11A or J-11B but something in between. More like a transitionary variant where the plane may be using indigneous radar but still coupled to some Russian avionics like the IRST and uses Russian engines.

China isn't ordering kits anymore but they're sourcing individual components directly from the parts manufacturers. I guess they're getting it a lot cheaper this way instead of Sukhoi acting like a middle man and creaming a little bit of profit from the deals.
 
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