What can the PLA learn from the IDF?

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
adeptitus said:
Going back to the question "What can the PLA learn from IDF", I think the Israeli armed forces has excellent experience dealing with low intensity warfare & urban warfare conditions. This may help the PLA dealing with future urban combat and some "peace keeping" operations.

Israel is a small country with 6 million people, with hostile folks all around. They cannot afford to lose men & material like the Iran-Iraq war. They value the life of every solider and provide them with excellent armor protection. For example, Israel operates the heaviest APC's (Achzarit & Nemmer) and equip them with 360-degree video cameras, rear-hatch, and internal-mounted or remote-controlled machineguns, so the crew is not exposed outside to hostile fire.

Imagine if, sometime in the future, the PLA is involved in an UN peace keeping operation like UNOSOM II, in which Pakistani, American, Malaysian peace keeping troops were killed, plus numerous wounded & 1,000+ Somali deaths. Those who watched "Black Hawk Down" were never shown what happened to the Malaysia peacekeepers that were assisting the operation. Here's a brief description:

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peacekeeping in Somalia as part of UNOSOMII by the 900-strong MALBATT 1, formed primarily from 19 RAMD(Mechanised), also known as 'The Fighting Tigers' in 1993. Commanded by Brigadier-General Datuk Abdul Latif Ahmad, MALBATT saw action in the Battle of Mogadishu where 32 Condor Armoured Personal Carriers (APC) with 113 personnel were sent to rescue 75 American servicemen. In the operation, 18 US soldiers were killed and 70 were wounded. Condor driver Private Mat Aznan Awang was killed by heavy machine gun fire. An RPG ripped apart his APC while eleven others were injured. Four Malaysian Condors were immobilised. Private Mat Aznan Awang was pothmously promoted to the rank of Lance Corporal and awarded the medal Seri Pahlawan Gagah Perkasa, the nation's highest gallantry award. In another incident, two Malaysian peacekeepers from Grup Gerak Khas was killed when their convoy approached the K4 roundabout in Mogadishu on their way to negotiate with a Somali warlord. They were killed when the attack on their convoy had intensified and had decided to draw fire away from the convoy. One Malaysian peacekeeper was wounded and captured by Somali militia. He was later released unharmed.


For those unfamiliar, this is a Condor APC:
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From the description, the Somalis prolly destroyed Private Awang's APC with RPG's, then machinegunned him to death. 4 of the Malaysia APC's were disabled in the street fight. The PLA should take a good look at these incidents and develop urban combat vehicles, or at least heavy APC/IFV's via tank conversions like the Israelis.

The PLA has numerous T-59's, which can be converted like this:
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New APC's can also be built on top of MBT chasis like this:
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And existing APC's can be "up-armored" like these:
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adeptitus you are aware of course that Pakistan was holding anti-terrorism exercises in Xinkiang recently ? Israel's anti-terrorism experience in Lebanon was less than inspiring and of course unarmed palestinians can hardly be compared to the situation in Iraq.

In addition if Israel thinks that it can make itself an 'indespensible' ally and end up as the tail 'wagging the dog' well lets just say China is going to store up a whole heap of trouble by associating Israel with itself...

In any case in Somalia it was Pakistani troops who ended up picking up the pieces
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
FreeAsia2000 said:
adeptitus you are aware of course that Pakistan was holding anti-terrorism exercises in Xinkiang recently ? Israel's anti-terrorism experience in Lebanon was less than inspiring and of course unarmed palestinians can hardly be compared to the situation in Iraq.

I'm citing cases where lightly-armoed APC's were sitting ducks to RPG's. During the Battle of Mogadishu the Malaysians lost 4 Condor APC's to RPG's, and during Operation Rainbow the IDF lost M113 APC's to RPG's & ATGM's (AT-3?) used by Palestinian fighters. In Iraq War II, where American APC was penatrated by Iraqi RPG, everyone sitting in the back were blown to pieces.

It doesn't matter if the APC is Israeli, Pakistani, Chinese, Malaysian, or American. One hit by a RPG and off you go. The Israeli "heavy iron" solution of HAPC's is a good concept that should be emulated. The PLA has many older MBT's, such as the T-59/T-69/T-79 that can be converted into HAPC's or Heavy IFV's that are more suitable for urban combat.
 

Li Shizhen

New Member
Engineering corps: 'No 100-percent solution' to tunnels
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The IDF's Weapons Systems and Infrastructure Development Authority (WSIDA) has received more than 100 suggestions on coping with the tunnels in the Gaza Strip in recent years. However, thus far it has failed to come up with an adequate solution.

The successful terror attack near Kerem Shalom Sunday triggered criticism from civilians and former military personnel against WSIDA and the defense establishment.

Dr. Vladimir Frid developed the V-3 system for detecting underground spaces - that is, tunnels - with former colleagues from Ben-Gurion University. After hearing how the terrorists reached the IDF outpost, he was sick with anger. "I felt I was living in a country in which the establishment that is supposed to protect our soldiers and citizens treats them with contempt," he said yesterday.

"We checked the system already several years ago in the Gaza Strip, and exposed three tunnels," he said.

Frid presented his system to WSIDA, but "they decided to dismiss" it. "About a year ago, I met with the authority and engineering officers. I understood that it wasn't important to them. Today they have to dig there, and we're in the 21st century. The system is relatively cheap for a Merkava tank, and does not require a large investment to make it operative," he said.

The Geophysics Institute, Lod, proposed the Ben Ari system to WSIDA. People at the institute refused to talk about the system, saying it is still being considered by the authority. But WSIDA sources said it was an unripe idea, a theory still being examined.

Former GOC southern command Brigadier Zvika Fogel examined some of the ideas himself.

"All kinds of seismographic and electric methods were proposed to indicate underground changes," he said. "We examined them, and I ruled them out because 70 percent of the indications they gave were incorrect. Each alert would send us running, digging, blowing up explosives to collapse tunnels that may have been in the area."

Today the ground forces use methods that provide a partial solution. They carry out controlled explosions to cause the collapse of suspected tunnels, utilize a sensory system that the IDF says provides reliable indications, and operate a trencher that can dig rapidly and deeply to expose a tunnel.

However, a senior IDF officer said yesterday that the main problem is detecting the tunnels, and only intelligence can solve that issue.

"Like in every battle, there is no 100 percent solution. Some interested parties who call themselves experts are trying to portray what happened on Sunday as a failure, to promote some idea they developed," an engineering corps officer said.

Fogel said yesterday that since the latest redeployment along the Gaza Envelope - the communities along the Gaza Strip - the IDF has been forced to ignore the tunnels, and devote most of its attention to more acute issues such as Qassam fire and attempts at attacks, penetration or the laying of explosives. "The enemy's acts have altered the IDF's order of priorities," he said.

This statement angered a senior officer, who dismissed them out of hand. "Perhaps the media had forgotten the tunnel threat, but it occupies us every day, and we deal with it constantly," he said.

Sources in the IDF and defense establishment say that every proposal is examined with due seriousness, sometimes without considering financial implications. A defense source described the attempts to solve the problem as "long-distance running." "R&D is a matter for many years," he said.

Although there is no absolute solution to the threat, Israel's situation is better than that of other countries, defense sources said. In February this year, representatives from WSIDA and the Geophysics Institute took part in a workshop on this topic in the United States. The solutions raised there were also limited, the sources said.
 

Shen Nong

New Member
Armor technology

Bradley reactive armor tiles, Israeli-developed technology, has been used to protect soldiers in American combat vehicles. The armor plating explodes outwards, diffusing the impact of incoming fire.
 

Li Shizhen

New Member
Israel establishes itself as fifth-largest arms exporter
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By Alon Ben-David Jane's Defence Weekly Correspondent

"I estimate that Israeli sales constitute more than 10 per cent of the global arms trade in 2006," Yossi Ben-Hanan, head of the Israeli Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) Defence Export Agency (SIBAT) told Jane's.

"Last year's most significant contract was Israel Aircraft Industries' and India's Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO's) joint development of the Barak 8 shipborne surface-to-air missile, totaling more than USD400 million," he said.

In 2006, India became Israel's primary customer for defence products, with sales amounting to USD1.5 billion. Israeli sales to its second-largest costumer, the US, exceeded USD1 billion for the first time. "Compared with USD300 million sales to the US in 1999, this remarkable growth could be attributed to the increasing number of Israeli companies establishing subsidiaries in the US and partnering with American industries," said Ben-Hanan. "This is also true for the European market, where sales reached USD800 million in 2006."

The Israeli MoD has recently completed a new legislation aimed to tighten the monitoring of defence exports, prepared in response to requirements by the US Department of Defense, which suspected an unauthorised transfer of US technology by Israeli companies.

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© 2006 Jane's Information Group
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