Western influences on China's military

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Are you sure that this is correct? Compound bows are a lot harder to make than crossbows. Hard to say if what happens in the field matches the doctrine in paper. Also, crossbows can draw up to over 300lbs of strength, which enable them to tear through horses. Crossbow troops is one way the Han managed to even things up with nomad cavalry.
 

szbd

Junior Member
Well, for things about ancient history, we can only look at the records available, right? The doctrines were official ones, and was published after the beginning period of a dynasty, means after massive battles occured. So they must have a reason to put number of bows more than crossbows.

For a crossbow with 300lb strength, you either lay down use your legs to reload, or there's a ratcheting on it so you can use your arms. Either way, it needs a lot of strength, time, and training.

Crossbows were very important and considered top lethal weapon. But it was mainly used as an elite firepower and tend to be very expensive. For example there were crossbows manned by like 20 people and several bulls.

Ancient Chinese government put a lot of investment in bow and crossbow industry. The central factory could have a thousand people working, so the complexity to make them was not a big issue. Besides, China seldom use metal to make the bow of the crossbow, so to hold that strength, a crossbow can't be cheap.
 

fishhead

Banned Idiot
Compound bows were very important, in the sense that Mongol used them to conquer the vast area. Without that, it's simply impossible for them to achieve that.

Crossbow was not used in China as "range/sniper rifles". Chinese crossbow is smaller and easy to be loaded. It's a large scale infantry weapon very efficiently used to fight cavalry, especially huns.

Chinese corssbow
103263_1.jpg
 

fishhead

Banned Idiot
This is how ancient Chinese soldier using the crossbow. If used in large number, it could beat cavalry charge. Chinese used it in large number, not just for its strength, that's the difference from the west.
mercenario.jpg
 

kunmingren

Junior Member
well, there are interaction between different part of the world even far back during the age of sumeria and babylonians. scholars have unearthed trade goods from china/sumeria that ended up in the different part of the world. In fact, Chariot warfare, which was very common during the warring State, was introduced into China from the middle east during the Shang Dynasty.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I can't remember where I read this, maybe from the CHF, but at one time, the Han Dynasty has accounted for over 250,000 crossbows for all its armies. That does not sound like an elite weapon but rather one that is commonly used. I am not sure if you're confusing it with ballistae, which is like a large crossbow mounted on wheel.

Drawing a crossbow via leg or through a ratchet is much easier than trying to draw a bow with around 80 to 160lbs of draw strength.
 
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szbd

Junior Member
I said elite, that is elite to some extent. Look at the doctrine for Tang dynasty, for a 12500 people corps, averagingly everyone has a bow, and 1/5 people have crossbows.

In han dynasty there were small crossbows and strong crossbows mensioned in the record. But after that, seems bows were getting more and more in number.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I don't really think Chinese chariots was some invention that came from the Middle East. Chariots from different countries like Egypt and the Hittites, were different among themselves, reflecting differing military doctrines. The Hittites for example, preferred their chariots heavier and bigger, where you can put more archers on it, while the Egyptians go for lightweight, speed and maneuverbility.

The Chinese chariots seem unique on their own and don't carry specific influences from the Middle Eastern empires. Would have been difficult for any chariot to transverse across central Asia in the first place.

The chariot itself was the militarization of a rather popular and mundane vehicle that is typical of sedentary cultures, the wheel cart. Anyone who had the wheel cart would inevitably have chariots.

The concept of pure cavalry on the other hand, came from the Huns. They were first encountered and fought by the Zhao, and later the Zhao would use all cavalry formations against the other Warring States. By the end of the Warring States period, chariot use had declined to the point they are mainly for pageantry and as a command vehicle by the top generals.

From Han later on all the way to Tang, the cavalry dominated and was the golden age of cavalry in China. The stirrup began mass manufacture towards the end of the Han Dynasty, just in time to be used in the Three Kingdom wars. From the Three Kingdoms to the Sui, cavalry was increasingly armored, and this was the period in China where it came closest to having the equivalent of knights, or heavy cavalry. Turkish influences on the Tang changed this again, and the Tang went for the speed of the light cavalry.

Chariots, or to be more precise, wheeled carts, later returned to military service but not in the manner people thought. With the invention of fire arrows, mainly rockets with arrow tips, came the invention of multiple firing boxed launchers, a sort of prmiitive MLRS. These were often mounted in wheeled carts, creating an early artillery battery.

Evolution of swords in China also reflect foreign influences. Up to the Warring States period, the predominant sword form was the Jian, straight blade with two edges. From the Han on, this changed to the Dao, which is a single edged sword. The change from Jian to Dao reflects cavalry use, and the change of swordmanship from thrusting and stabbing attacks to slashing. But later on the Turkish and the Mongols influenced the Dao design to a curved saber form, starting to appear by the Yuan and Ming Dynasties.
 
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szbd

Junior Member
I think the change from Jian to Dao also was a result of improvement in steel production.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Just who was the first to smelt iron & steel? I heard that the Hittites got the secret from a certain tribe in what is now Armenia. Somehow, the technology appeared in China - the 1st iron implements are from the Lungshan period.
 
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