Wars of the future

Discussion in 'Members' Club Room' started by Jones Henry, Sep 28, 2005.

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  1. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    Oh please. You are confusing motive with capability.
    Just because China were not capable of western style emperialism (in the 18th) does not mean they did not want to.

    Do you remember the tributary system under, where a state was required to pay China a fixed amount per year?
    Korea, Annam, Burma had to pay a yearly tribute
    Thailand once every 3 years.

    I'm trying to justify the West's actions, but to say that China was innocent is just delusional.

    Look at the Map of China at the end of the Ming Dynasty and compare it to today. You can see it has doubled and those lands are populated by HAN chinese majority now. What happened to the original peoples that lived there, they were annihilated.

    If you want to see mongoloid features, look at central asia (the steppes), China's traditional route for conquest.
     
  2. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    Map of Ming China 1644

    [​IMG]


    Map of Qing China 1896

    [​IMG]
     
  3. AssassinsMace
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    AssassinsMace Brigadier

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    Those maps still don't show the world.

    Apparently you weren't capable since the world isn't under your control. The Chinese were very capable since they were the only world's superpower 2000 years before the rise of Europe. Marco Polo wrote that if the Chinese wanted to take over the world, they could've done it with ease. Key word... "wanted." Look at how you try to salvage the crimes of the West as a show of strength. You had the motive but failed miserably. Next you'll say you stopped out of concern for your fellow human beings. More like the rise of communism stopped you. Notice only during the Cold War, you started to be concern with human rights when the communists were pointing how much of a criminal against humanity you are. Total up the crimes committed by the West around the globe and that equals the worst criminal in history.

    The Ming were Mongolians not Chinese. Learn your history.

    Never said China was innocent! I said you were far worse.

    Delusion is the worst criminals against humanity and nature that history will ever know pointing the finger at China. Notice you didn't address all those Western crimes I pointed out? Can't stand the truth, huh? :D
     
    #23 AssassinsMace, Sep 30, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  4. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    Far worst? China is just like the West. It 5,000 years of history has proved that. There are periods of barbarism followed by enlightenment. The west does too.

    China could not take over the world, like the Europe did when it was at its height. It's techology, though the best of the world at that time, could never have conquered such vast territories. It was not advance enough to have industrial levels of output.

    What was within China's power, was it immidiate region. Central Asia has seen far too many Chinese invasions, so has Vietnam, Tibet, and Korea. I hope you are familiar with the kow tow tradition, where visiting delegates have to prostrate themselves infront of the yellow emperor to acknowledge China's superiority and rule of their land.

    Here is what Chinese belief of the heirarchy of things.
    1.) Heaven
    2.) Son of Heaven (emperor)
    The Emperor is the ruler of the world and the other kings are his subordinate and they acknowledge this by bringing tribute.

    Not emperialism in fact, but in theory.

    So please spare me your "holier than thou" argument.

    Ming Dynasty was chinese. It overthrew the Yuan Dynasty, which was mongolian. You are the one who needs to learn their history.

    And as for the crimes the West have commited in its emperialism, I have one respond....GUILTY AS CHARGE, like China.
     
    #24 IDonT, Sep 30, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  5. AssassinsMace
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    Rewriting history again? Just like Westerners have always done to hide their crimes against humanity.

    You talk about motive versus capability? What hypocrisy! How about action speaks louder than words?

    I can point to every culture on the planet who believed they were the center of the world. Westerners are the only ones to act on their belief.

    You can go to any place in the world and see the legacy of oppression by the West. You can't say that for China. China has never claimed it owns the world like Christians do. China only thought it was the center of the world not own it like Westerners think to this very day. Big difference!

    Did you know that the UN conducted a study on the illegal global child sex industry? It found that the majority of child molesters that travel the world in order to exploit poor people and molest their children are from 1) the US, 2) Great Britain, and 3) Germany. They alone make over 75% of the child molesters found in countries where illegal child sex tours operate.

    Did you know that over 90% of the world's serial murderers live in the US? And 90% of them are of European ethnicity.

    Did you know American men rape and kill more women and children overseas than any other group? It's said that if you get a map of Japan and South Korea and stick a pin where ever a rape and/or murder occurs, the pins clutter around American military bases. And this is how you treat your allies!

    The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) shows America's plan to take over the world. It's a document written by the crones of the Bush administration before he became President. In the document it states that the US needs a "Pearl Harbor" type event, i.e. 9/11, inflicted upon the US in order to hide American plans to take over the world. And it starts off with an invasion of Iraq and ends with attacking China. It's the whole European colonialism all over again. And again you are the only ones that act on your beliefs. History shows you to always be the aggressor. But too bad you'll fail again but this time the world has the ability to strike back! Good thing the Iraqis are creaming your butts right now. It'll make you think twice before you wage your campaign of hate and racial supremacy upon the world again.

    Not only are you the greatest criminals in history, you continue to be one for the forseeable future. LOL!!!!!! :D
     
    #25 AssassinsMace, Sep 30, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  6. IDonT
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    IDonT Senior Member
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    What has that got to do with what we are talking about?
    ACtion speak louder than words. Last time I check, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Burma were paying tribute to the mighty son of heaven, ruler of the world.
    China still destroyed the Xiongnu, Turks, Uighars, and other stepped nations.

    I am not the one re writing history. Ming Dynasty was CHinese

    Please don't give me that bullshit. European countries and the US (there is a difference) track more offenders than the rest of the world. DOn't tell me CHina has no serial killers, rapist, etc. They just don't track it that much

    Don't get me started on child molesters. At least the west do not marry 12 year olds to 40 year olds.

    For a CHinese you are very short sighted.
    History shows you to always be the aggressor
    Do you know that the US history pails in comparison to China? When China was 220 years old since Qin Dynasty, do you know how many atrocities it has commited?
     
    #26 IDonT, Sep 30, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2005
  7. PiSigma
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    PiSigma "the engineer"

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    xiongnu invaded china first, china was defending herself. and only when xiongnu was defeated in battle did they leave the stepps. because the whole reason they attacked china was for better pasture, and since their own land sucks, they got to leave.

    both sides got some good points. china was part of the great game as much as the europeans nations, it's just we dropped out earlier than them. and instead in africa, we were in central asia. the qing map shown earlier is actually smaller than qing's terroritory at it's height. at its height, qing extends a lot further into central asia, controls most of present day burma, northern vietnam, and huge amounts of land of russian far east.

    europe on the other land don't have much land unlike china, so they are forced to expand, and this need to constantly expand to survive is what developed the "need to conquer" mentally. and the religion factor, christianity is not a very forgiving or understanding religion. it does not tolerate other religions or cultures. so much of western conquest reflects this, which caused most of the problems of imperialism.

    the bottom line is imperialism is not right, and should be stopped. the neo-imperialism practiced by USA right now is basically the same as the ones in 1800s.

    btw, henry jones, what's your education background?? where you from?? i find your posts very unique. i would like to know where your opinions come from. because from your posts, you always mention nanoweapons. i don't know what is your field of study, but i'm a chemical engineer, and in my university, we have one of the best nano-technology research facilities in the world (UofA), we are getting a new national nano-tech research center. a lot of my friends study engineering physics, so i know some things about nano, and there's not much research into weapons yet in nano.
     
  8. AssassinsMace
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    AssassinsMace Brigadier

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    Still rewriting history. You still haven't shown me how China tried to take over the world when your maps only show the Far East. Also the Qing were Manchus not Chinese. Got another wrong like all your points.

    What criminals did Westerners go after? Certainly not the dictators the West supported throughout your colonial and Cold War history. Dictators that did all the killing for you on top of your crimes.

    Never said China didn't have criminals. Here you go again rewriting history. I said 90% of serial murderers are from the US. Learn to read!

    Never saw a twelve year old marrying a 40 year old unless you're talking about the past royal class. But then European royalty are notorious for in-breeding and child sexual perversion. Shall we talk Rome also? Shall I point to Mormons who do those very things. You can make up all the stories you want but official figures show Westerners are the most prolific child molesters in the world.

    You just keep drowning in your own hypocrisy. You keep pointing the finger and three are always pointing back at you. LOL!!!!

    For a Westerner, you're sure are blind to your own crimes. Oops, sorry! All Westerners are blind. That's why you arrogantly judge the world with your hypocrisy. That's why everyone in the world sees you as the greatest threat to world peace today.

    What does it say compared to China's 5000 year long history, the West's 400 year rape, pillage, and plunder of humanity in the name of white supremacy and domination of the world wins you the title of greatest criminals against humanity and nature that history will ever know? It says a lot. Look at this way... At least there's one thing no one will question your superiority above everyone else. LOL!!!!! :D
     
    #28 AssassinsMace, Oct 1, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2005
  9. Kingpin
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    Kingpin Just Hatched
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    It irks me to see that most of the Chinese here are in the West, being educated in the West, being fed in the West, being able to enjoy the freedom provided in the West, can constantly bashing the Western Government because of the freedom of speech, not like their own "proud" country the PRC. What's more than sad that most of the "US bashers" Chinese here seems to live in the United States, enjoying the life that the US provides them, but still they like to bite.

    Typical Mainland Chinese, always biting the hands that feeds you. But still the US/West accepted you. Ironic isn't it?

    Also the "white-supremacist" thing is getting old.


    every religion had their own dark history, the history of Christianity in China shows that when the Nestorians first arrived in the Tang dynasty, they were persecuted by the Buddhist establishment. Later, when the Jesuits arrived in the late Ming and early Qing, they were again persecuted by the Buddhists (the Confucians were relatively OK with them). And the Jesuits were not intolerant - in fact, they were tolerant to a fault, even endorsing the Confucian teachings and condoning the practice of ancestral sacrifices. That is partly why quite a number of Chinese scholars converted. The Jesuit failure was due to a clash with the Franciscans (who wanted a stricter line on the ancestral rites), and the decision of the Pope to side with the latter and prohibit ancestral worship by Chinese Christians - a decision which offended the Qing Kangxi emperor.

    Also, this historical example shows how it is impossible to generalize about Christianity, since there are different positions and groups even within Catholic Christianity, some more 'tolerant' than others.

    Btw nice argument IDont :D
     
    #29 Kingpin, Oct 1, 2005
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2005
  10. Schumacher
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    Schumacher Senior Member

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    I live neither in China nor US. :)
    Anyway, what's wrong with criticizing the US while being there at the same time ? If the US doesn't like these Chinese or other nationals being in their country, just ask them to leave. The fact is immigration to the US is a two way street, both the US & the immigrants get some of what they want.
    China, India & many other countries will be delighted if the US is dumb enough to kick them out. Brain drain to the US is a major problem for many developing countries.
     
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