My Finnish friend suggested I post this in the new forum..so I will..
Well according to this article they are..My son,the USN sonar tech, says the greatest concern is over PLAN subs is the Song class deisel boats. Deisel boats running on batteries are very,very hard (if not impossible) to track.
I'm sure not all the information in the article is correct. Infact there are some discrepancies and some things I do not agree with..I can't stand "military experts"..Interesting topic nevertheless!
Chinese subs called growing threat to U.S.
By Michael Kilian
CHICAGO TRIBUNE
August 12, 2005
Chinese officials partially owned deadly mine
WASHINGTON – Little noticed by the public, a recently released Pentagon report to Congress carries a strong warning that China's rapidly expanding and improving submarine fleet poses a mounting military threat to the United States.
The end of the Cold War left the United States as the world's supreme naval power, and the Pentagon, occupied with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, has shifted its priorities away from seaborne threats.
The Pentagon has even diverted components of its anti-submarine warfare program to other purposes.
China, though well behind the U.S. submarine fleet, has turned to an undersea vessel that American planners had considered largely obsolete – the diesel-electric attack submarine – to boost its arsenal. It also is equipping its submarines with new technology from Germany and elsewhere to make the craft harder to detect and more lethal.
Experts predict that China's submarine fleet will substantially outnumber that of the United States within 15 years.
The Pentagon report, delivered to Congress last month, says that China's navy is designed mostly to prevent or dissuade the United States from intervening in any future conflict between China and Taiwan. But it also is giving China the capability of menacing Japan and striking U.S. cities with submarine-launched nuclear missiles.
"China is in the midst of perhaps the largest military buildup the world has witnessed since the end of the Cold War," said Richard Fisher, vice president of Washington's International Assessment and Strategy Center, at a recent hearing of the House Armed Services Committee.
John Tkacik Jr., a senior research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, raised a similar alarm.
"China's ambitious weapons modernization and reforms in military doctrine are aimed at promoting vast increases in its comprehensive national power," Tkacik told the House committee. He said the Pentagon report is "a wake-up call to the administration, to Congress, to the Taiwan government and to our friends and allies in the Asia-Pacific region that . . . China stands poised to assert itself as the pre-eminent power in the Asia-Pacific region."
China appears to be strengthening all branches of its military – improving training and weaponry for its huge army, increasing its short-and long-range ballistic missiles, adding new aircraft and precision munitions to its air force and developing unmanned aircraft, the report said.
Submarines have become a high priority. China has about 64 surface warships in its navy and 55 or more attack submarines, designed for use against enemy surface ships and submarines as well as ground targets.
They not only include its current Song-class sub, armed with anti-ship cruise missiles that can be launched underwater, but a new Yuan diesel-electric attack sub. China also is expected to introduce a nuclear attack submarine this year and has bought four highly capable Russian Kilo-class attack submarines, with eight more of the diesel-powered craft on order from the Russian military.
In contrast, Taiwan has just 27 surface warships and four submarines.
The United States has a fleet of 59 attack submarines of all classes, but has commitments for them across the globe.
At current attrition and replacement rates, experts estimate that the U.S. attack fleet will be down to 40 submarines or fewer within the next 15 years, while China expands its fleet by perhaps as many as 35 modern subs.
Another major advance in Chinese attack-submarine capability has been the introduction of AIP, or "air-independent propulsion," technology to its attack force.
Lt. Cmdr. Bill Murray, a veteran submarine officer now serving as an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College, said AIP technology has transformed the diesel-electric sub into an ultra-stealthy ship-killing weapon.
Nuclear submarines are quieter than diesels, but attack subs running on batteries are quieter still.
"When they're on battery (power), they're incredibly difficult to find," Murray said. "So, unless you know where they are, they could be anywhere, which complicates the United States' or any opposing navy's ability to operate on the surface."
Lyle Goldstein, another Naval War College expert, said diesel-electric subs have been able to operate for only two or three days on batteries, having to resurface to recharge them. With AIP, the submarine carries its own air supply, as it might extra fuel, and can recharge its batteries while deep underwater and stay submerged for two or more weeks.
"I don't think anybody really knows how far the Chinese are along with it, but we've found some very disturbing signs," Goldstein said.
Goldstein and Murray said China acquired much of its AIP technology from Germany. They emphasized that their assessments are their own and not official views of the Naval War College or the Navy.
All U.S. submarines are nuclear; the Navy has no diesel-electric attack craft. Last fall, the Swedish government leased the Navy one of its AIP-equipped diesel-electric vessels and crew so U.S. anti-submarine warfare forces could train against the wider-ranging submarine tactics AIP makes possible.
As the Pentagon report on China observed, the United States has emphasized capability over quantity in maintaining its submarine fleet. But numbers give the Chinese certain advantages.
"Numbers matter," Murray said. "The Chinese obviously believe that numbers matter because they're turning out submarines like sausages. The Chinese are definitely on the winning end of an arms race."
Though the collapse of the Soviet Union decreased the need for the nuclear submarine as a globally deployed, second-strike nuclear deterrent, the U.S. underwater fleet is spread worldwide as part of a strategy of projecting force across all oceans and major seas. That mission includes protection of the United States' wide-ranging carrier battle groups.
Alarm over the Chinese buildup is spreading on Capitol Hill. House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter, R-Alpine, argued that this is no time to cut back the size of the U.S. attack-sub fleet or close the Navy submarine base at Groton, Conn., as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has recommended.
"The best anti-submarine weapon is another submarine," Hunter said.
The Pentagon report on Chinese military power assessed its submarine buildup as part of a coercive effort to convince Taiwan that "the price of declaring independence is too high" and that naval action against Taiwan might include a blockade or an attack.
"They want to deter us from interfering if they feel they have to use force to deter Taiwan (from independence), raising the potential cost (in casualties and ships sunk) of U.S. intervention to such a high degree that they think we will calculate we can't defend Taiwan without paying an exorbitant cost," Murray said
Well according to this article they are..My son,the USN sonar tech, says the greatest concern is over PLAN subs is the Song class deisel boats. Deisel boats running on batteries are very,very hard (if not impossible) to track.
I'm sure not all the information in the article is correct. Infact there are some discrepancies and some things I do not agree with..I can't stand "military experts"..Interesting topic nevertheless!
Chinese subs called growing threat to U.S.
By Michael Kilian
CHICAGO TRIBUNE
August 12, 2005
Chinese officials partially owned deadly mine
WASHINGTON – Little noticed by the public, a recently released Pentagon report to Congress carries a strong warning that China's rapidly expanding and improving submarine fleet poses a mounting military threat to the United States.
The end of the Cold War left the United States as the world's supreme naval power, and the Pentagon, occupied with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, has shifted its priorities away from seaborne threats.
The Pentagon has even diverted components of its anti-submarine warfare program to other purposes.
China, though well behind the U.S. submarine fleet, has turned to an undersea vessel that American planners had considered largely obsolete – the diesel-electric attack submarine – to boost its arsenal. It also is equipping its submarines with new technology from Germany and elsewhere to make the craft harder to detect and more lethal.
Experts predict that China's submarine fleet will substantially outnumber that of the United States within 15 years.
The Pentagon report, delivered to Congress last month, says that China's navy is designed mostly to prevent or dissuade the United States from intervening in any future conflict between China and Taiwan. But it also is giving China the capability of menacing Japan and striking U.S. cities with submarine-launched nuclear missiles.
"China is in the midst of perhaps the largest military buildup the world has witnessed since the end of the Cold War," said Richard Fisher, vice president of Washington's International Assessment and Strategy Center, at a recent hearing of the House Armed Services Committee.
John Tkacik Jr., a senior research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, raised a similar alarm.
"China's ambitious weapons modernization and reforms in military doctrine are aimed at promoting vast increases in its comprehensive national power," Tkacik told the House committee. He said the Pentagon report is "a wake-up call to the administration, to Congress, to the Taiwan government and to our friends and allies in the Asia-Pacific region that . . . China stands poised to assert itself as the pre-eminent power in the Asia-Pacific region."
China appears to be strengthening all branches of its military – improving training and weaponry for its huge army, increasing its short-and long-range ballistic missiles, adding new aircraft and precision munitions to its air force and developing unmanned aircraft, the report said.
Submarines have become a high priority. China has about 64 surface warships in its navy and 55 or more attack submarines, designed for use against enemy surface ships and submarines as well as ground targets.
They not only include its current Song-class sub, armed with anti-ship cruise missiles that can be launched underwater, but a new Yuan diesel-electric attack sub. China also is expected to introduce a nuclear attack submarine this year and has bought four highly capable Russian Kilo-class attack submarines, with eight more of the diesel-powered craft on order from the Russian military.
In contrast, Taiwan has just 27 surface warships and four submarines.
The United States has a fleet of 59 attack submarines of all classes, but has commitments for them across the globe.
At current attrition and replacement rates, experts estimate that the U.S. attack fleet will be down to 40 submarines or fewer within the next 15 years, while China expands its fleet by perhaps as many as 35 modern subs.
Another major advance in Chinese attack-submarine capability has been the introduction of AIP, or "air-independent propulsion," technology to its attack force.
Lt. Cmdr. Bill Murray, a veteran submarine officer now serving as an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College, said AIP technology has transformed the diesel-electric sub into an ultra-stealthy ship-killing weapon.
Nuclear submarines are quieter than diesels, but attack subs running on batteries are quieter still.
"When they're on battery (power), they're incredibly difficult to find," Murray said. "So, unless you know where they are, they could be anywhere, which complicates the United States' or any opposing navy's ability to operate on the surface."
Lyle Goldstein, another Naval War College expert, said diesel-electric subs have been able to operate for only two or three days on batteries, having to resurface to recharge them. With AIP, the submarine carries its own air supply, as it might extra fuel, and can recharge its batteries while deep underwater and stay submerged for two or more weeks.
"I don't think anybody really knows how far the Chinese are along with it, but we've found some very disturbing signs," Goldstein said.
Goldstein and Murray said China acquired much of its AIP technology from Germany. They emphasized that their assessments are their own and not official views of the Naval War College or the Navy.
All U.S. submarines are nuclear; the Navy has no diesel-electric attack craft. Last fall, the Swedish government leased the Navy one of its AIP-equipped diesel-electric vessels and crew so U.S. anti-submarine warfare forces could train against the wider-ranging submarine tactics AIP makes possible.
As the Pentagon report on China observed, the United States has emphasized capability over quantity in maintaining its submarine fleet. But numbers give the Chinese certain advantages.
"Numbers matter," Murray said. "The Chinese obviously believe that numbers matter because they're turning out submarines like sausages. The Chinese are definitely on the winning end of an arms race."
Though the collapse of the Soviet Union decreased the need for the nuclear submarine as a globally deployed, second-strike nuclear deterrent, the U.S. underwater fleet is spread worldwide as part of a strategy of projecting force across all oceans and major seas. That mission includes protection of the United States' wide-ranging carrier battle groups.
Alarm over the Chinese buildup is spreading on Capitol Hill. House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter, R-Alpine, argued that this is no time to cut back the size of the U.S. attack-sub fleet or close the Navy submarine base at Groton, Conn., as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has recommended.
"The best anti-submarine weapon is another submarine," Hunter said.
The Pentagon report on Chinese military power assessed its submarine buildup as part of a coercive effort to convince Taiwan that "the price of declaring independence is too high" and that naval action against Taiwan might include a blockade or an attack.
"They want to deter us from interfering if they feel they have to use force to deter Taiwan (from independence), raising the potential cost (in casualties and ships sunk) of U.S. intervention to such a high degree that they think we will calculate we can't defend Taiwan without paying an exorbitant cost," Murray said
