US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by Jeff Head, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Brigadier

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    This is just further evidence of the Navy's disdain for Naval Aviation, they don't like manned aircraft, they don't want Pilots to be directing their fleets, wonder what they gonna do with them 11 aircraft carriers, LOL. Its just an example of "schizo-phrenic" ideologies. That's why they don't want manned aircraft, because the way it is, Naval Aviators call the shots on when and where the Navies largest capital ships are headed now, and where they are going next.

    The reason the Joint Chiefs did not support the F-22, made up of Army and Navy core, the USAF top policy makers are more concerned about sexual assault and a PC culture than their Aviation Mission, kinda disgusting to the AFB and anyone else who realizes that "AirPower still holds the key to keeping our troops and bases safe from the enemy!

    They are looking to shed the 6th gen moniker, because they don't intend to field a sixth generation fighter, I'm really not sure the USAF does either, that's the trouble with playing politics and not having a "clear eyed vision" of Air Supremacy! It takes somebody with vision and "balls" to keep this Nation safe, and sadly, I can say for certain, that those good men are being corporately "emasculated" in the interest of political correctness!
     
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  2. Equation
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    Equation Lieutenant General

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    Interesting to say the least, but that looks like a stealth version of the F-15 (Silent Eagle) to me.
     
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  3. siegecrossbow
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    siegecrossbow Brigadier
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    Doesn't look all that different from a fifth gen jet to me.
     
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  4. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Six gen will likely be more evolution then revolution. The basic air frame has to start with current tech.
     
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  5. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    I would venture to say that the thinking has shifted towards "a system of systems" development concept as opposed to a platform centric approach being driven by :
    (a)Learnings from the F-35 program that complex systems such as sensor fusion was simply too platform centric and hence became a limiter in the development path;
    (b)Importance of the OODA loop in tron warfare and the ongoing trajectory of the "Z axis"; and
    (c)Limiter of a platform centric approach when 21st century warfighting is focused on the effects chain that could be stringed together using a system of systems approach

    Below is relevant extract from an article titled "SHAPING A 21ST CENTURY APPROACH TO TRON WARFARE". This article in my view is insightful to understand why system of systems development is a logical extension to the F-35 program.

    The F-35 is known as a 5th generation player in the state-of-the-art for both the Air-to-Air Fighter, and Air-to-Air Attack combat roles. It also adds an “electronic” or “tron” warfare component to the fight–the Z Axis and the “Fusion Engine”

    This is the beginning of a combat aircraft design that is building along a new axis-the
    “Z-axis.” The “Z axis” is a core discriminator. The F-35 aircraft is not a linear performance enhancement from F/A-18 4th Gen; it has a third performance axis “Z.” The “Z” axis is the pilot’s cockpit C4ISR-D (for decision) loop axis. Starting at the beginning air fleet Command and Control from WWI on it has morphed into C5ISR (useful but getting silly) – Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Combat Systems, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance.

    upload_2016-6-22_19-44-0.png

    Traditionally, in looking at the progression of aircraft a two-dimensional design depiction has been used; the x-axis is time and the y-axis is performance.

    That graph captures individual airplanes, but they do tend to cluster in generation improvement. Each aircraft clustered in a “generation” is a combination of improvements. The aeronautical design “art” of blending together ever improving and evolving technology creates improvements in a linear fashion, if not performance would eventually go asymptotic. The airframe design characteristics blended together prior to F-35 have been constantly improving range, payload (improved by system/and weapons carried), maneuverability (measured by P Sub s), speed, and range (modified by VSTOL–a basing mobility plus factor).

    The F-35 is also designed with inherent survivability factors, redundancy and hardening and stealth. Stealth is usually seen as the 5th Gen improvement. But reducing the F-35 to a linear x-y axis improvement simply misses the point. The F-35 is now going to take technology into a revolutionary three-dimensional situational awareness capability. This capability establishes a new vector for TacAir aircraft design.

    This can be measured on a “Z” axis.
    Historically, Command and Control (C&C) was external to 1,2,3, 4th and some 5th Generations of TacAir. Now known as C5ISR the goal was still enhancing fleet wide combat performance for all Type/Model/Series (T/M/S) of TacAir.

    This is the current modern AWACS (hub and spoke) battle management concept. But by using a three-dimensional graph, one can understand that the “Z-axis” takes airpower into a totally different domain.

    The shift is from externally provided C5ISR into C5ISR-D for decision into the cockpit. This is the revolutionary step function that breaks the linear progression of previous Generations. The “Z” axis in which the F-35 is the prototype is the first fusion technology with 360 awareness “D” (for decision) cockpit.

    A design focus of F-35 is the cockpit, and helmet displays of trusted fused integrated systems. Enabled with that technology the pilot can also be a distributed information decisionmaker. This is the Z axis in action and the enabler is the trusted “fusion engine.
    upload_2016-6-22_19-51-5.png
    Col John Boyd’s OODA loop formula was a brilliant insight in merging technology,
    training and tactics. TacAir development was in a never ending quest to quest to always achieving “SA”–Situational Awareness—the Observe/Orient part of OODA. And because of the technology limitations of Command and Control battle management was focused on building a better and better “Observe Orient” half of his OODA formula”, AWACS and Navy E-2s are examples of providing “bogy Dope” to a radar empowered fighter.

    With the F-35 Cockpit Z-axis the key words are actually now embedded in the second half of Boyd’s OODA –the words “decide, act.” The quest for US way of war to always fight and win is to now embrace the entire spectrum of Boyd’s OODA by not questing just for Situational Awareness, because that is only half way but rather everything should is now focused on developing technology, training tactics and C&C at all levels to empower “Situational Decisions.”

    Consideration has to be taken into account of the F-35 active systems, both radar and DAS but also the combat revolution of attacking in a stealth aircraft using state-of-the art passive sensing beyond anything ever seen in combat. This is the true revolutionary step beyond just SA that the “z-axis” F-35 “fusion engine” brings to the fight as a catalyst for a 21st Century refocused way of support equipping and training all Service joint con-ops.

     
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  6. Jura
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    Jura General

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    LOL Brumby at first I thought you had mistyped "tron" for "drone", then I realized you didn't, so I was looking in your post what "OODA" is, but had to use google to find out, and ... I quit :)
    but knowing for example F-22 still flies without Helmet-Mounted Display, I'm sorry to tell you, Brumby, I think your post describes some boondoggle (I'll attach Like to it though, hoping you'll take my remark well LOL! and of course in the future it may be you who'll have the last laugh, once "the “Z-axis” takes airpower into a totally different domain")
     
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  7. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Brigadier

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    Yep, Mr. Brumby is way to smart for "guys like us", but sadly in the past, all these smart ideas end up "biting us in the butt"..... like the philosophy that "we don't need an internal gun, we can do it all with AAM"

    Statistics say all these things are true, but real life in NEVER, say NEVER! The F-35 is a LO end 5th Gen, that is what it was designed to be. The F-22 is a HI end 5th Gen, that is what it was designed to be. We fail to realize that all these policy wonks are politicians or statisticians, and all of these sweeping changes are put forth in order to appeal to politicians who control funding.

    In the real world, the F-22 continues to beat the F-35, which continues to beat all the re-hashed fourth gens.

    Sad to say, all these pronouncements fail to realize that nails do not hold or drive themselves, you need a hand to hold the nail, and a hand to hold the "hammer" that drives the nails. Nails don't go willing into place, but need a skilled operator to encourage them! no nail willing gives itself up to hold two pieces of wood together, they fight you every step of the way???

    Love you Mr. Brumby, and I know better than to discount your outstanding interpretations, but I've been a part of this game for 60 years, manned HI level platforms will continue to maintain "air superiority", and all of these new ideas will work into a part of the mix, but aircraft, with real pilots, will continue to do the heavy lifting of winning wars! Whether flown into theatre, or loaded on a "boat", the aircraft does continue to be the most effective means of wielding the "hammer".
     
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  8. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    I had some good laughs from your comments especially the boondoggle. The Air Superiority 2030 Flight Plan is a first stab document at an evolving idea which presumably will fine tune over time and some of it might turned out to be just fluffy ideas. I am simply taking what is prescribed and applying my interpretation of the concept. For example, the 2030 document talks of the following :
    upload_2016-6-23_0-4-23.png
    The "Find, Tix, Track, and Assess" is just basically the OODA loop as coined by Boyd.
    upload_2016-6-23_0-7-1.png
    The whole sensor fusion concept in the F-35 is premised on the OODA loop in that the "observe" and "orient" sequence is automated through the sensor fusion capability.

    In fusion warfare, tactical, operational, and strategic leaders enjoy an asymmetric decision advantage via the integration and synchronization of information from multiple sources and domains into analysis within a specific time and space parameter. Ideally, fusion warfare shapes the battlespace in advance of real time. To illustrate this advantage, we will use the Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act (OODA) Loop model created by the late Col John Boyd. Boyd originally designed the model using air-to-air combat engagements as a point of departure for explaining winning and losing in conflict. As a result, military officials have widely adopted it for various C2 decision-making processes. Boyd’s model is much richer than the simple, sequential OODA Loop familiar to most readers (see Figure 1). His thoughts included several variables and feedback mechanisms that have applicability within fusion warfare. However, at the OODA Loop’s core, time is the key variable that determines victory or death. In other words, the fastest OODA Loop wins. An ISR Perspective on Fusion Warfare by Maj Gen VeraLinn “Dash” Jamieson, USAF

    By 2035, the anticipated battlespace is expected to be highly cross domain and winning the battlespace will require a shift from platform centric to effects based because of the scope and depth of the battlespace involved.
    upload_2016-6-23_0-16-1.png
    upload_2016-6-23_0-16-33.png

     
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  9. FORBIN
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    FORBIN Lieutenant General
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    Me also really a cool dude :) but he love tease, despite that :rolleyes::cool: we need members as it some, fortunately few so serious, enjoy the hobby guys :D
     
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  10. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    I don't believe anybody is advocating the demise of the hammer (F-35/F-22) but that the advent of a 6th gen. hammer is unlikely at least not in the form of any platform centric development. The divergent in development path appears to me at least is leaning towards a de-centralised approach by way of system of systems development. The ramification of such a development pathway means :
    (a)The continuing investment into the F-35 as a platform of choice;
    (b)More likely than not that the F-22 will become a bridging platform for the high end fight by way of incremental upgrades; and
    (c)Machine teaming development to provide the generational leap needed to win in the post 2030 battlespace.
     
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