Type 055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

Discussion in 'Navy' started by FarkTypeSoldier, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. Tam
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    Tam Captain
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    Its very likely that in the case of the 052C/D, the VHF radar would detect the target, and then direct the Type 346 radars to it. The Type 346 radars will then track it more accurately. Of course, the use of the VHF radars alone can get a more quality track if you have a bunch of 052C/D that is doing CEC with these radars, and that will provide a better tracking picture for the Type 346 radars to home on, and the information among the Type 346 from various ships can be exchanged and fused using CEC.

    In the case of the Type 346B, it no longer needs that additional VHF process. I would think that not only is the radar more powerful, but so is its gain and sensitivity in receiving. If the ship has CEC, and I think it has, it would also share that information to other destroyers via CEC.

    Here is another question that people should be asking:

    Why doesn't the 052D improved just use the Type 055's 346B radar and get rid of the VHF array? The introduction of the new VHF array also surprised me. They bothered to create a new VHF array for the 052D but not on the 055? Why does the improved 052DL still use the VHF array even if that array has been improved?

    This is my hypothesis. The 052D cannot use the Type 346B radar of the 055 because it doesn't have the power and cooling requirements for the Type 346B. This strengthens another hypothesis, and the Type 346B radars are using Gallium Nitride. Instead, they choose to improve the VHF radar. So this in other words, is like a patch.

    Its possible they can use a sub variant of the Type 346B, smaller, less elements or they put a power limit use to it so it can fit within the 052D's power infrastructure. But a nerfed version of the 346B is also going to be less powerful as a result compared to the 055 version, and may still have to be compensated with a VHF radar. All in all a sub 346B may still be better than the 346A. If they had started to implement this, this would be one of the things we have no visual clues of to detect from the observer side other than hear rumors about it. However, I tend to find the rumor mill to be uninterested on the technical aspects of ships like their fittings, so they don't bother to pass on these things. I am kind of wondering if this was done of the 052DL.

    I would be eager to see how the 052E might look as it can either pose or answer more questions.

    Will it use the Type 346B radar? Or some sub variant of it.
    Will it still use the VHF array?
     
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  2. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Captain
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    What does a warship need to detect with a VHF radar?
    The advantage of a VHF radar is anti-stealth - against either incoming missiles or small aircraft.

    Remember that the radar horizon (30KM) for a warship at sea level severely limits the usefulness of any radar for long range detection.
    At the radar horizon, the S-Band radars should still be able to detect incoming stealth missiles anyway.
    And beyond this distance, it would be straightforward for opposing stealth aircraft to fly underneath the radar beams to avoid detection.

    So for long-range stealth detection, you want a long-endurance, high-altitude UAV like the Divine Eagle.
    It would have a radar horizon of 650KM+ and could be datalinked to ships and aircraft.

    A Global Hawk has a unit cost of $131M, so let's say a Divine Eagle costs $200M, given a similar size but with many more radars.
    A Type-52D costs $500M and a Type-55 costs $900M. And we can see 34+ ships so far.

    So adding Divine Eagle support to a 6-ship SAG (operating in the Western Pacific) is comparatively cheap.
    And if you compare the cost of a future Divine Eagle to a stealth fighter or stealth bomber, I expect a minimum of 20+ to be built, which would be more than enough to blanket the Western Pacific - given sufficient fighter protection.

    So how useful would additional VHF radars on surface ships really be?
    I see the huge amount of electrical generation on a Type-55 as being aimed at primarily aimed at lasers/railguns, rather than for the radars.

    This is looking at using a Divine Eagle for fleet defence, but remember the primary mission would be hunting opposing ships and aircraft.
     
  3. Tam
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    Tam Captain
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    Radar horizon only limits your detection abilities against low flying aircraft, drones and missiles. It does not limit your detection abilities from mid to high altitudes. Low altitude is relative, it may still detect the aircraft hundreds of kilometers away if the aircraft is not flying low enough. The longer the range it seems, the less the radar height matters.

    You can use this to figure things out hypothetically and compare various radar placements.

    http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

    Should not forget that 052C/D and 055 have upper mast radars, like the Type 364 and unnamed four faced X-band on the 055 that can look further at the radar horizon than the main radars.

    People also tend to forget the other purpose of metric radar, and that is OTH search, either via backscatter or surface wave propagation.

    There is another radar that have been ignored and that is the Type 366. This is the white dome on top of the bridge seen on the 052C/D and 054A. This has over the horizon detection against ships, and is based on the Russian Mineral ME from the Sovs. The difference of the Chinese copy is that it adds the ability to detect sea skimmers over the horizon. Allegedly.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_366_radar

    The Type 055 doesn't have this radar per se, but its functionality may have been subsumed into the four faced X-band radar it has on the mast. May --- or it may have been omitted.

    Both 054A, 052C/D and 055 also have some form of passive detection or ESM that has directional finding against the emitter. There are two units left and right just behind the Type 366 on the 052C/D that looks like the naval version of the DWL002:

    https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/how-effective-is-chinas-new-anti-stealth-radar-system-really/

    http://errymath.blogspot.com/2015/02/highly-advanced-digital-cetc-dwl002.html#.XclJ5j4vNRo

    There seems to be a new version of this unit seen from the second bath of 052D and above, and on the 055.

    There is also something called the Type 366-2, which is part of the Type 366 system. This is passive detection with geolocation or directional finding against ships. Basically, its a copy of the Mineral ME-2. This appears as two white spheres left and right of the 054A's funnel and you can also see a pair under the Type 517M VHF array of the 052C/D.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/mineral-me/

    Both Type 055 and 056 seems to have omitted this however, although in the case of the 055, I wonder if this functionality is subsumed into its ESM systems. The Type 055 loses a lot of the ESM systems you see on the 052C/D, including 726-1, 726-2 and 366-2, so I wonder if all their functionality is consolidated into its sole pair of ESM units near the base of the mast. (Its covered from the angled wall but you see the top of them). Its possible that on the 055, active and passive OTH (Type 366/Mineral ME functionality) against ships may have been deleted for aerial and drone spotting.


    I don't see the electrical generation for the Type 055 used for lasers and railguns when the ship itself doesn't have any right now and won't be for years to come, and its not certain 100% the PLAN would sign on and certify them to risk this kind of high investment right now. Far too forward thinking to be practical. Their tactical usefulness may still be arguable --- they are not very useful if you still can't see the enemy. So its more important to sense the enemy first before you can fire on them.

    The Type 055 doesn't have any VHF radars. All that electrical power maybe going for the main and auxiliary radars, as well as the ECM.

    Divine Eagle will supplement in the detection, but its not going to replace the ship's own sensor systems. Divine Eagle cannot serve as direct fire control for the ship's weapons, it can only tell where the ship's sensors where to look and track. The ship's own sensors still have to directly handle the fire control.
     
    #7123 Tam, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  4. Juan B.
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    Juan B. Just Hatched
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    I´ve read before that low frequency radars can bounce in the atmosphere and turn back to land, increasing the radar horizon. It´s a phisycal effect of these low frequency radars that has been taken in advance by russians, ucrainians and even iranians for their very large VHF radar sites.

    So mixing your argument that the Type 346 and A version of the previous Luyang series are much lower powered than the Type 346B, probably the Yagi antennas are covering a very large range radar detection and the Type 346 a medium and short range, but the B series of Renhai would be so powerful than all radar ranges are relied upon the Type 346B itself.

    But I´m not physicist, so I´m entering in a speculative argument.
     
  5. AndrewS
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    AndrewS Captain
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    Yes, but realistically, how useful is it for a destroyer to detect a long-range VHF contact?

    The destroyer doesn't have SAMs with a long enough range to engage.
    And all an aircraft has to do is go under the radar horizon to disappear.

    As for lasers, I don't think it will be too long.
    The first Arleigh Burke has already had a laser retrofitted.

     
  6. Tetrach
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    Tetrach Junior Member
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    thinking about it, who do surface ships see ships over the horizon ? do we have to automatically use AWACS etc ?
     
  7. Tam
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    Tam Captain
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    That's basically it.
     
  8. Tam
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    Tam Captain
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    Without using aircraft, warships do it passively by ESM. Meaning they detect the communication and radar signals emitted from the other ship. You exploit certain skywave propagation phenomena:

    radio-wave-propagation-19-638 (1).jpg radio-wave-propagation-10-638 (1).jpg electro-magnetic-wave-propagation-4-638 (1).jpg

    Which is why being so radio noisy and leaky is bad, and radio discipline is needed. In the case of the 052C/D, usage of VHF can also risk the ship being detected.

    Ships can also be picked up by land based OTH far into the sea but its not the quality you can target missiles with.

    You would still need aircraft to properly ID, position and range the target. All these OTH does is tell where the aircraft to look for.

    However you can passively target a ship beyond the horizon and send long range anti ship missiles.

    US:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SLQ-32_Electronic_Warfare_Suite

    Russia:
    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-electronic-systems/mineral-me/

    Where the US and Russia differs is that the Russians specifically create actively targeting radars that go over the horizon using Duct Propagation (see the first picture thumbnail) and see Mineral ME link. China bought the first two Sovs to help learn how this works, and in addition, they imported two sets of this for the 052B and 051C. At some point this was copied into the Type 366, which is used with the 054A, 052C and D.

    Chinese refer to this as MOTH (Microwave Over the Horizon).

    https://www.researchgate.net/public...owave_over-the-horizon_Propagation_on_the_sea

    YLUZ7og (2).jpg 85UbhC6 (1).jpg

    Example of radar that uses MOTH. That radar above you can visually identify as the one used on the Type 022 FAC. Its also similar in design on the one used on the Type 056 so I am wondering if that ship has MOTH to enable use of its YJ-83 over the horizon. In addition the 056 does have ESM and datalink for aircraft communications. This is in lieu that the ship does not have the Type 366 set. Of course there is always the real possibility that the 056 may have decide to omit this capability. And so does the 051B refit, a destroyer that lacks the Type 366.

    Another research paper on using much shorter radio waves for communicating OTH via the atmospheric duct.

    https://www.researchgate.net/public...ean_Microwave_Link_Using_the_Evaporation_Duct

    However I think the problem of OTH is the problem of identification, along with more precise location and ranging. The more loose the location of a target is, the anti ship missiles would need to search for it, which means it can be forced to fly higher or conduct a search pattern, and in so doing, risks earlier detection and shot down. You want a very precise target location so you can only activate the anti ship missile's radar at the very last moment to achieve the highest surprise possible, as the antiship missile's own radar can be used to warn the target using ESM via radar warning receiver.

    Since the Type 055 deconstructed the use of known PLAN radars (Type 364, 366 and 344) aside from the Type 346B, its much harder to guess what its capabilities except to assume that its new X-band radar set assumes the functionality of the Type 344, 364 and 366 radars. But will it still have MOTH? That's another question. Maybe the ship will rely purely on airborne CEC for its antiship role.
     
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  9. AndrewS
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    @Tam

    In antiship situation, it will be battle network versus battle network.

    Long-range targeting systems (Satellites, OTH radars, airborne recon aircraft, submarines, etc) will be operating at ranges far in excess of a MOTH surface search radar.

    Then feeding initial targets and mid-course guidance to the weapons, which have ranges like

    LRASM: 600KM
    Antiship Tomahawk: 1500KM

    DF-21D ASBM: 1500? KM
    DF-26 ASBM: 3000? KM
    DF-17 HGV: 2000? KM
    Type-55 launched CM-401 ASBM: 300+ KM

    Again, this is beyond the range of a MOTH surface search radar.

    So Type-55s would just be another launch platform for antiship weapons.
    Given the importance of offboard targeting now, it doesn't really make sense to load up a Type-55 air defence destroyer with lots of antiship missiles.

    It would be cheaper to use survivable land-based TELs with larger missiles or dedicated arsenal ships with CEC.

    You could take a Type-55 hull but strip out all the expensive long-range radars and electronics.
    That leaves 112 VLS cells for Antiship/Land-attack/ASW, plus short-range air defence, electrical generation for future lasers and the ASW suite/helicopters.
    It might only cost half as much, and will also have lower operating costs.

    China is going to have a lot of destroyers, so it can afford to build a specialised arsenal ship subclass.
    And such ships are going to remain flexible over the course of their lives, because of the multi-purpose VLS cells and CEC.

    Eg. In a high-intensity conflict, a SAG with 4 destroyers is primarily going to be loaded out with air-defense missiles, with limited VLS space for antiship missiles.
    Given so much overlapping long-range SAM coverage, you can afford to have 1-2 (cheaper) arsenal ships to vastly increase the number of missiles for anti-ship or land-attack.
     
  10. Anlsvrthng
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    Anlsvrthng Senior Member
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    If you expect the PLAN to follow a strategy that benefit the aggressor .

    To close down the South Chinese sea to any airplane, including B-2, B-2.1, F-35 and so on it needs around 50-80 destroyer with VHF radar.


    They have to follow a quasi random pattern, with 30-35% emitting VHF any given moment .

    It would makes next to impossible to fly over the sea above 1000m, and very hard to survive even under that level.


    Of course it is easy to dream up radiation patterns and strategies that make it easy to target the assets, but why the PLAN would follow that ?
     
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