055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Blitzo

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Assuming that cruiser construction is the new norm for the PLAN IMO is more wishful thinking than forward thinking IMO. You can call a 12,000t warship a "destroyer" if you want, but this is about as logic-bending as the Japanese calling the 27,000t Izumo a "helicopter carrying destroyer". The role played by the 055 will almost certainly be that of an air warfare command ship, a capability that the PLAN has hitherto been notably lacking in. And most definitely there are no trends in Europe, India, or Australia that could be comparable to switching from a 7,500t high volume construction to a 12,000t high volume construction. AFAIK there are no frontline surface combatants under construction or planned to be under construction in any of these countries greater than 7,400t with India's Project 15B being the highest at 7,400t; Australia's is the Hobart at 7,000t and Europe's is the (Italian) FREMM at 6,700t. Trying to compare the conversion of a 6,200t class destroyer to a 7,400t class destroyer (Project 15 to 15B) and saying this is somehow the same comparison as the PLAN (fancifully) switching from a 7,500t class destroyer to a 12,000t class cruiser (052D to 055) is like saying switching from mass-producing a scooter to mass-producing a motorcycle is somehow the 'same' comparison as switching from mass-producing a motorcycle to mass-producing a Lamborghini. Like somehow the costs are bearable, reasonable or justified because the tonnage increase is roughly "comparable" to what other navies are doing. Really the only way your dream will come true is if the 055's full displacement is actually closer to something like 10,000t (and this is still a very real possibility). More likely IMO is that the PLAN will have a full hierarchy of cruiser with cruiser roles in the form of the 055, a destroyer workhorse in the form of the 052C/D/E, and an ASW/local air defense frigate in the form of the 054A/B. A 052E upsized to 8,500 or 9,000t would certainly be more in keeping with current naval trends around the world. A mixed 12kt CG + 7-9kt DDG + 4-5kt FFG structure with more ships on the lower end would certainly be a balanced force IMO. If the 055 is closer to 10,000t full, an interim mix of 10,000t CG + 7-7.5kt DDG + 4-5kt FFG would have to see the PLAN waiting for a true cruiser design to appear.

I think his comparisons by mentioning Australia and Europe is because Australia's Hobart class is replacing the much smaller OHP class they have, and Europe's FREMM class are replacing much smaller frigate precedecssors of their own, and I think he's suggesting there is a trend for successor classes of warships of a given role to be higher in displacement to their predecessor classes.

Of course, I don't think that logic can be applied consistently, afterall the USN isn't replacing Ticos with a bigger class of warship, and the Zumwalt class was greatly truncated and not a replacement for Burkes as they were meant to be.



As for the 055's future orbat proportion, what you suggest is possible, but I think lethe's suggestion of 055's eventually replacing 052Ds in production and role entirely is not that fantastical either.

Lethe has brought up the possibility of replacing 052Ds in production with 055s in the past, and before it revolved around the idea of the Navy eventually shifting from a three tier blue water navy of 12k ton DDG, 7k ton DDG, and 4k ton FFG, to eventually one of only 12k ton DDG and 6k ton "FFG" where the FFGs make up the something like 2/3 of the surface combatant number and the 12k ton DDG makes up 1/3.
Such a change would have to be far into the future, like which only occurs starting 2030 or something. But I think such a fleet structure is quite reasonable, and compared to the USN's current force structure which has an overwhelming number of 9k-10k ton Ticos and Burkes with only very few smaller frigate sized blue water capable vessels.

Personally I think an order of battle of 24 12k ton 055s, 24 7k ton 052C/Ds, and ~50 4k ton 054A/Bs to be achieved by the late 2020s is plausible and reasonable, whereby the 052C/Ds and 054A/Bs make up the bulk of the workhorse fleet while the 055s act in the traditional cruiser role.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just one point.

Comparing the Chinese Navy or US Navy to the requirements of any other navy in the world is not useful.

It is only China and the USA that have the military budget and industrial resources to match each other as their respective pacing threats and who also have a requirement to act as a global blue water navy with persistent presence.

Everyone else accepts that their naval construction can't compete with China or the USA.

A good example is how Russia, India, Japan, UK and France all struggle to build even one AEGIS destroyer every year.

In comparison, both China and the USA are building 3 per year.

---

Plus my read is that the Type-55 cost will be around 25% more expensive than a Type-52D after the initial learning curve of 8 ships.

So in a 5 year time construction period, it's a choice between:

20x Type-52D (with 1280 VLS cells)
or
16x Type-55 (with 1792 VLS cells)

It's not a big difference in terms of hull numbers versus where they need to be deployed, but a big difference in total capability because of the larger hull.

And switching production entirely from Type-52D to Type-55 still means that China has a balanced fleet structure because there are also 19x Type-52C/D with another 30 years of service life left, along with lots of smaller Type-54/57 frigates.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
Can you provide evidence to refute his claims, instead of a one-line snipe? It shouldn't be too difficult, right? I'm very interested in what you have to say on this.
I have a problem with his statement as it's way too broad to accept. Such as what radar those warships use, what it's capabilities are, how much does it cost (we all know that it's cheaper for PRC to produce this numbers compared to all 'Western' nations where it's about the same) and the capital of all those questions - how many of them respective countries need and how much capable? How many countries are there in the entire world with warships possesing well documented ABM capabilities? Two (US and Japan?)!

By this stupid reasoning you can call European countries weak when comparing them to PLAN but in case they would unite (hypotheticaly) with all their resources and capabilities I'm 100% sure they would match PRC capabilities in no time.

I mean those kind of comparison to prove somebody's point (not only AndrewS's - I'm reading those here almost every day) comparing apples and oranges without spending a second for a critical thinking. The rest of his post is OK for me. Japan is struggling with building warships... France is struggling... What other fantastic news will I hear today?

Russia has it's problems, Indians are doing OK aside from few of their projects. Royal Navy is at fault that they can't get more money for their needs but they worked hard for that in past 30 years in my opinion.

I could go on and on but this at least should let you know what my opinion on this matter is. With threads 'oh look, if PLAN will expand exponentialy like this then in 100k years they will have the biggest fleet in the universe and they will be able to from PRC to US on the desck of the warships without even getting wet for a second!' like. When public opinion doesn't even have a glimpse into the original PLAN planning points...

I think most of those threads should go back to original, more news-like, technical-like aspects instead of fantasies. Or at least create a thread about that on Strategic Defence sub forum for that. Because I'm tired of going through 25 posts about how big PLAN will be in the year 2300 to find a single post about, for example, recent Type 055 developments. And probably I'm not the only one here who feels the same.
 

Lethe

Captain
Of course, I don't think that logic can be applied consistently, afterall the USN isn't replacing Ticos with a bigger class of warship, and the Zumwalt class was greatly truncated and not a replacement for Burkes as they were meant to be.

The "USN exception" to 21st century warships being significantly larger than their predecessors is the elephant in the room really. And the simple truth, for those not in chronic denial, is that USN has made a dog's breakfast of its procurement plans over the last two decades, most relevantly with respect to the failed Zumwalt class and its last minute substitution with AB3. Anyone relying on USN to provide an indication of what a modern combatant should look like is therefore going to be sorely mislead.

Unfortunately, there seem to be some posters here who are simply unable to conceive of a world in which USN does not set the standard. If 055 is larger than AB3, this must be because it will be a limited run "special edition" warship, rather than the simple truth which is that AB3 is a last-minute "Plan B" solution that is compromised from the outset, the final evolution of a thirty year design that is already acknowledged to be too small. The simple truth is that 055, as the first clean-sheet large surface combatant of the 21st century (to not be strangled at birth), is the new standard for such vessels.

Of course, when a significantly larger warship replaces AB3 in production for USN around 2030, it will then be "obvious" to such commentators that such is the new and eminently reasonable standard for large surface combatants going forward. The rest of us will simply roll our eyes.
 
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delft

Brigadier
By this stupid reasoning you can call European countries weak when comparing them to PLAN but in case they would unite (hypotheticaly) with all their resources and capabilities I'm 100% sure they would match PRC capabilities in no time.
A lot of what you say is not ridiculous but you spoil it with this paragraph.If they were to unite in the Atlantic they will not find PLAN, if in the Western Pacific they wouldn't match PLAN.
The main advantage of PLAN is that it can afford to build large numbers of ships of a class and do that on the most modern shipyards of the World. Wage levels have little to do with it. The contrast with the position of RN is painfully obvious to give just a single example.
 

damitch300

Junior Member
Registered Member
I have a problem with his statement as it's way too broad to accept. Such as what radar those warships use, what it's capabilities are, how much does it cost (we all know that it's cheaper for PRC to produce this numbers compared to all 'Western' nations where it's about the same) and the capital of all those questions - how many of them respective countries need and how much capable? How many countries are there in the entire world with warships possesing well documented ABM capabilities? Two (US and Japan?)!

My 2 cents.

The only radar really capable of ABM is the Smart-LMk2
And the only nation having it is the Netherlands.
 
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