055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[A.Man]

055 has gone this far

 

[Blitzo]

Because it's not what the Wuhan mockup looks like; if a 02-level weather deck is what they wanted, that's what they would have built in the first place. And because you're basing your theory entirely on the color of white paint, which as I have pointed out before is both uneven (the helicopter deckhouse's white is significantly higher than the rest of the ship) and also includes the CIWS platform, which I have no idea how or even why that would be modified/eliminated according to your theory.

So you're very confident that the mock up is fully representative of what the real ship will look like and the possibility of it not being fully representative is considered immensely unlikely? aka, that this is a red line of yours for determining whether it's possible the ship is 055 or not?

Because while I do lean towards the opposite -- i.e.: that certain parts of the mock up are probably not representative -- I also am far from confident enough to believe that "unrepresentative parts" of the mock up have no chance of possibly finding a place on the real ship. In other words, my red line isn't here.


As for what I believe the ship will look like...
Yes, I'm suggesting that the grey vs white paint indicates the parts of the mock up which are representative of the real ship, vs the "base/foundation" non representative parts which are mock up exclusive.
In regards to the helicopter hangar structure, the "higher" white paint compared to the smokestack/bridge white paint is because the helicopter hangar had a significantly higher "base foundation" than the front (one can see this when going back to the early pictures of the 055 mock up being constructed, and we will find that the white paint on both the bridge structure and the helicopter hangar structure corresponds with the levels of their respective base foundation heights)....
Note, I'm not saying that there is 0% possibility for any of the white structures to find their way onto the real ship (for instance, the helicopter hangar structure's overall geometry is not inconsistent with what I expect the real hangar to look like, including the white parts of the hangar on the mock up), but that based on what we see with the mock up as it is, I think the only parts of the ship we can be confident about is the grey parts.
Regarding the front CIWS platform, I believe that the real ship will have a CIWS platform that will mount the CIWS at the same height as depicted on the mock up relative to the rest of the ship. Whether the real geometry of the front CIWS platform is the exact same as built on the mock up is another question.


Using this picture again (below), I've kept all the parts that remain below are essentially "fixed" or "red line characteristics" for me, which I believe are all fully or heavily geometrically representative of how those parts of the ship will look on the real thing. All of the relative positions and relative heights depicted by the characteristics (such as the helipad height, the height of front CIWS, main gun etc) are also representative of what the real thing will likely be.

The rest of the mock up (which have been erased), I perceive as "gaps" or "variable characteristics" which are not accurately depicted or depicted at all on the real ship... and I am keeping an open mind towards these "gaps," accepting they may possibly end up being filled quite close to what the mock up displays, or possibly very different, or anything in between.

As I said, 2) is the only qualification which is reasonable to me.


Because even with that orange/red box I had to do violence to the shape and it's STILL at closer to 4 decks below the crease than 3.5. The actual ship has to be quite different from that CG in order for 3) to be true, i.e. has to start sloping up towards the stern much earlier than the CG indicates, or even that I indicated, or else you end up with a weird-looking hemispherical hull bottom which doesn't happen on modern warships. That CG obviously is hypothetical but is the closest one I have come across so far to what is probably the real shape of the 055.

I think "quite different from that CG" is a bit of a relative term.
I think that image of the 055's possible configuration is the most accurate one we have to date, but that doesn't mean every design characteristic of that image is something we should judge a real under construction hull on, if we're trying to judge whether the real physical hull could be 055 or not.

There are some characteristics that are red lines -- such as the front superstructure/deckhouse configuration, the position of the forward and stern CIWS, the smoke stack geometry etc... but there are other things that should warrant substantially more flexibility in terms of viability, such as the exact geometry of the keel of the ship -- especially if we do not even have clear pictures of the keel and cross section of the hull to begin with.

There is nothing that definitively rules out this module as being the 055, but there is also nothing that definitively rules it in either. I'm fine with waiting for additional clarification but I'm far less sold on this module than other people are.

Yes, of course there is nothing yet that definitely proves it is 055.

However, I think we're at a stage of the rumour/watch cycle where the rumours and credibility suggesting this ship is 055 has reached a point where the onus is now on waiting it to continue construction to see if something truly solid ends up disproving its possibility of being 055.

I'm reminded of April/May last year when 001A's initial modules were being built at DL, and where all the rumours and big shrimps were very confident it was 001A, but every step along the way there were possible structures that were argued as "not likely for 001A" but there was never any truly solid characteristic that could definitively disprove the ship was not 001A.

I think this 055 hull is at a similar stage of us watchers having to "definitively disprove its possibility of being 055" and where anything else below definitive contraindication can essentially be disregarded for the purposes of judging whether it's 055 or not.

 

[Jeff Head]

This mystery module does not easily fit into my vision of what the 055 should look like in the end. But if it were the 055, the section below is IMO what is most likely being built (outlined in orange and red, with the orange being the visible cross-section in the photo):
View attachment 31183
This requires some assumptions, however:
1) The amidships weather deck is at 02-level instead of 01-level.
2) The hangar does not extend all the way to the forward edge of the helicopter deckhouse.
3) The cross section is at a part of the ship where the hull bottom is starting to slope up towards the stern.

Of these, I personally believe only 2) may actually be true.

I agree. If the module is the Type 055, that would approximate where it is.

And I agree with the assumptions about the weather deck and locations too.

The hanger has two doors, we are pretty sure it is for two helos...so it is either bigger than we are thinking given what we have seen...or they are planning for a medium sized, Sino-SeaHark type helo for her.

 

[Iron Man]

So you're very confident that the mock up is fully representative of what the real ship will look like and the possibility of it not being fully representative is considered immensely unlikely? aka, that this is a red line of yours for determining whether it's possible the ship is 055 or not?

"Very", "fully", and "immensely" are all relative terms. Let's just say that I don't believe there will be any major changes from what is seen on that platform, namely an 02-level amidships weather deck, an EW radar atop the helicopter deckhouse, or the deletion of the "step structure", which I have no idea why they would have built just that structure in the first place if the entire weather deck was actually at that level.

In regards to the helicopter hangar structure, the "higher" white paint compared to the smokestack/bridge white paint is because the helicopter hangar had a significantly higher "base foundation" than the front (one can see this when going back to the early pictures of the 055 mock up being constructed, and we will find that the white paint on both the bridge structure and the helicopter hangar structure corresponds with the levels of their respective base foundation heights)....

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Why would the height of the white paint not exactly match the rest of the white paint height on the ship, regardless of what original base foundation was wherever beforehand? Especially if you intend this paint to delineate 'certainty' vs 'uncertainty' or whatever.

Regarding the front CIWS platform, I believe that the real ship will have a CIWS platform that will mount the CIWS at the same height as depicted on the mock up relative to the rest of the ship. Whether the real geometry of the front CIWS platform is the exact same as built on the mock up is another question.

I think the CIWS platform is actually a significant mark against your White Paint Theory. There is no reason to think there will be any changes at all to this platform, including the sloping, which we have already established exists on all 3 sides.

However, I think we're at a stage of the rumour/watch cycle where the rumours and credibility suggesting this ship is 055 has reached a point where the onus is now on waiting it to continue construction to see if something truly solid ends up disproving its possibility of being 055.

I'm reminded of April/May last year when 001A's initial modules were being built at DL, and where all the rumours and big shrimps were very confident it was 001A, but every step along the way there were possible structures that were argued as "not likely for 001A" but there was never any truly solid characteristic that could definitively disprove the ship was not 001A.

I think this 055 hull is at a similar stage of us watchers having to "definitively disprove its possibility of being 055" and where anything else below definitive contraindication can essentially be disregarded for the purposes of judging whether it's 055 or not.

We'll see I guess. I certainly don't subscribe to the belief that this is the 055 until proven otherwise. For me this is "possibly a warship of unknown class".

 

[Blitzo]

"Very", "fully", and "immensely" are all relative terms. Let's just say that I don't believe there will be any major changes from what is seen on that platform, namely an 02-level amidships weather deck, an EW radar atop the helicopter deckhouse, or the deletion of the "step structure", which I have no idea why they would have built just that structure in the first place if the entire weather deck was actually at that level.

We'll see I suppose.
Though I suppose the fact that this hull under construction has two decks above the main deck (and thus suggest the amidships weather deck would definitely be at least two decks high) means it's already "against" your own belief of what this ship should look like...

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Why would the height of the white paint not exactly match the rest of the white paint height on the ship, regardless of what original base foundation was wherever beforehand? Especially if you intend this paint to delineate 'certainty' vs 'uncertainty' or whatever.

The white paint is indicative of the foundation base on which the topside mock up structures (deckhouse, smoke stack, hangar etc) are built upon.
Back during the early construction of the mock up, we could see that the foundation base of the hangar structure was higher than the base foundation of the forward bridge/smokestack structure, and the white paint/grey paint delineation corresponds with the base foundation height.

So I think the real question is why did they choose to make the base foundation of the helicopter hangar structure slightly higher than the forward bridge/smokestack? I obviously have no clue, but I imagine there could be all sorts of sensible justifications.

I think the CIWS platform is actually a significant mark against your White Paint Theory. There is no reason to think there will be any changes at all to this platform, including the sloping, which we have already established exists on all 3 sides.

Well, right now I would describe the white paint theory not that everything which is painted white has 0% of finding its way onto the ship -- and more that everything which is grey has a very high likelihood of being representative of the ship whereas everything painted white is probably not representative of the ship (though certain parts may have great similarity to the real thing).
So as I said in the last post, everything grey is fully representative, everything white is variable in representation to low likelihood of being representative.

We'll see I guess. I certainly don't subscribe to the belief that this is the 055 until proven otherwise. For me this is "possibly a warship of unknown class".

Okay, fair enough.

I suppose I put a lot more weight on the role of credible rumours and consensus from the Chinese boards.

 

[Iron Man]

We'll see I suppose.
Though I suppose the fact that this hull under construction has two decks above the main deck (and thus suggest the amidships weather deck would definitely be at least two decks high) means it's already "against" your own belief of what this ship should look like...

This is circular logic. You can't claim that "this ship" is 055 (which you have not established) and then point to a 2 deck high module as evidence that the 055 has a 2 deck high module.

The white paint is indicative of the foundation base on which the topside mock up structures (deckhouse, smoke stack, hangar etc) are built upon.
Back during the early construction of the mock up, we could see that the foundation base of the hangar structure was higher than the base foundation of the forward bridge/smokestack structure, and the white paint/grey paint delineation corresponds with the base foundation height.

This "base foundation" is irrelevant to where they can physically apply paint. Again, if the paint height is a deliberate means of delineating 'definite' structures from 'uncertain' structures, then there is absolutely zero reason to apply an exterior paint coat according to the height of an interior support structure.

So I think the real question is why did they choose to make the base foundation of the helicopter hangar structure slightly higher than the forward bridge/smokestack? I obviously have no clue, but I imagine there could be all sorts of sensible justifications.

All sorts? Like what? Also, the base foundation if I understand you correctly is simply the interior second story of the helicopter deckhouse (and the roof of the step structure), which on a model is totally meaningless.

I suppose I put a lot more weight on the role of credible rumours and consensus from the Chinese boards.

Chinese boards are not much different from international boards. The only difference is that the big shrimp reside there and not here. I would personally tune out anything from people other than these, and even these people's words are to be taken with a grain of salt, since they are not totally immune to a touch of patriotic fanboism either.

 

[Blitzo]

This is circular logic. You can't claim that "this ship" is 055 (which you have not established) and then point to a 2 deck high module as evidence that the 055 has a 2 deck high module.

Err that's not what I wrote.
I said that the ship under construction clearly does have two decks above its main deck, which would suggest an amidships weather deck that is at least two decks high as well (this is pretty clear based on visual evidence and not a result of my own conjencture)... and so because of that, you may be more inclined to not believe that this ship under construction could be 055, because you strongly believe that the 055 mock up is an accurate reflection of what the real ship would look like.

I've tried to be quite careful to avoid circular reasoning, in regards to the two deck high weather deck issue -- the most I said in the last few pages was that if this ship does turn out to be 055, then it would confirm my theory about the mock up's amidships weather deck/white paint theory.

This "base foundation" is irrelevant to where they can physically apply paint. Again, if the paint height is a deliberate means of delineating 'definite' structures from 'uncertain' structures, then there is absolutely zero reason to apply an exterior paint coat according to the height of an interior support structure.

"Absolutely zero reason" seems a bit strong. One reason I can come up with is that they could have chosen to design the mock up so that they would build everything above the base foundation's ceiling to be more definite/representative and have the structures below the foundation's ceiling it to be more variable, and painting it white could just be an easy visual way of demonstrating it, possibly to visitors ("yes, as you can see admiral, the grey parts of the mock up are very close to what the real ship will look like, but the white structures are for our mock up's ease of construction only")

We can debate why they felt the need to have the white paint vs grey paint, but I think it is quite obvious that the height of the white paint corresponds very closely if not precisely with the height of the base foundation for the forward and rear mock up structures.

All sorts? Like what?

Anything from possibly needing a higher ceiling in the rear foundation structure for certain technical reasons (such as if the base structure is meant to house certain testing equipment for the mock up at that location), to something completely opposite like "who cares if this base foundation of the aft structure is half a meter taller than the forward foundation, it's not important for the topside mock up structures anyway".

Whatever the case, I think we have clear visual evidence that the base foundation of both the forward and rear mock up structures are of different heights. Whether the foundations deliberately designed as such for a certain use, or if it was a result of permissible variability, who knows?

Also, the base foundation if I understand you correctly is simply the interior second story of the helicopter deckhouse (and the roof of the step structure), which on a model is totally meaningless.

Err I'm saying the base foundation is merely a structural foundation, which may or may not have a purpose on the mock up. I'm not saying that the base foundation's internals are meant to be representative of the real ship's internals, because like you said, that would be meaningless.

Chinese boards are not much different from this board. The only difference is that the big shrimp reside there and not here. I would personally tune out anything from people other than these, and even these people's words are to be taken with a grain of salt, since they are not totally immune to a touch of patriotic fanboism either.

I think the Chinese boards having big shrimps and having more people on hand to immediately judge and sift through the rumours of the big shrimps faster than we can receive and interpret them is a major difference.

 

[Iron Man]

Err that's not what I wrote.
I said that the ship under construction clearly does have two decks above its main deck, which would suggest an amidships weather deck that is at least two decks high as well (this is pretty clear based on visual evidence and not a result of my own conjencture)... and so because of that, you may be more inclined to not believe that this ship under construction could be 055, because you strongly believe that the 055 mock up is an accurate reflection of what the real ship would look like.

I've tried to be quite careful to avoid circular reasoning, in regards to the two deck high weather deck issue -- the most I said in the last few pages was that if this ship does turn out to be 055, then it would confirm my theory about the mock up's amidships weather deck/white paint theory.

Ok well you did say this:

Though I suppose the fact that this hull under construction has two decks above the main deck (and thus suggest the amidships weather deck would definitely be at least two decks high) means it's already "against" your own belief of what this ship should look like

The part in parentheses indicates that you believe that because this module is two decks high (for its entire length) means that the 055's weather deck is two decks high. Which like I said you have not established that this module is in fact the 055 and therefore cannot claim that the 055 has a 02-level weather deck based on this module.

"Absolutely zero reason" seems a bit strong. One reason I can come up with is that they could have chosen to design the mock up so that they would build everything above the base foundation's ceiling to be more definite/representative and have the structures below the foundation's ceiling it to be more variable, and painting it white could just be an easy visual way of demonstrating it, possibly to visitors ("yes, as you can see admiral, the grey parts of the mock up are very close to what the real ship will look like, but the white structures are for our mock up's ease of construction only")

We can debate why they felt the need to have the white paint vs grey paint, but I think it is quite obvious that the height of the white paint corresponds very closely if not precisely with the height of the base foundation for the forward and rear mock up structures.

Wait, so the "base foundation" refers to the big concrete slab that everything else is built on, with all the supports and cross-beams underneath? In which case I definitely do not agree that the part with the helicopter deckhouse is higher than the rest of the ship. The base foundation is clearly the same height everywhere on that ship except the bow area where it starts sloping upwards, and represents the 01-level of the ship.

Anything from possibly needing a higher ceiling in the rear foundation structure for certain technical reasons (such as if the base structure is meant to house certain testing equipment for the mock up at that location), to something completely opposite like "who cares if this base foundation of the aft structure is half a meter taller than the forward foundation, it's not important for the topside mock up structures anyway".

If the base structure is mean to house testing equipment, then it has zero bearing on the external paint height. If nobody cares if the paint is half a meter taller, then it probably has no relevance to anything meaningful. Maybe I'm just not getting what you mean by "base foundation". Maybe you can point out exactly which structures you mean by this in a photo.

 

[Jeff Head]

Well, one or two things we know are cerrtain.

the Chinese have a Type 055 large DDG (what I would call a cruiser) design.

As with the Liaoning when they built the mock-up while we were still wndering exaclty what changes they would make to the old Varyag...they have built a mock-up f the Type 055:

There are very credible reports out of China that the first of class is already building...and of course some are pointing towards the one vessel that has been being debated now ...and I might add...ad nausium almost. LOL!

But we know pretty much what she is going to look like, how large she will be and what her general capabilities are going to be.

-130mm main gun
-Type 1130 CIWS Fore
-FN-3000L CIWS Missile system aft
-Two-helo hanger
-12,000 ton+ displacement
-112-128 VLS System
-What looks to be perhaps an improved APAR system

etc., etc.

While talking about some of the specifics is a great thing, sometimes we can get too deep in the weeds where those discussions over very specific items that only really time will tell...can distract from some of the post that mught come up, or be posted that actually show some proress.

Anyhow...just my two cents.

 

[Blitzo]

Ok well you did say this:

The part in parentheses indicates that you believe that because this module is two decks high (for its entire length) means that the 055's weather deck is two decks high. Which like I said you have not established that this module is in fact the 055 and therefore cannot claim that the 055 has a 02-level weather deck based on this module.

I see. What I meant was that this hull under construction has two decks above its main deck (via photo evidence), therefore its amidships weather deck (assuming it has one) will be (at least) two decks high as well.
I've made no statement to suggest that because this ship will be 055, based on my own theory or based on its visible two deck levels above its main deck.

If anything, I was suggesting the reverse for you -- that the photo evidence suggests whatever this ship is, if it has an amidships weather deck then that weather deck will be (at least) two deck levels high, and thus inconsistent with what you believe the 055 should look like.

Wait, so the "base foundation" refers to the big concrete slab that everything else is built on, with all the supports and cross-beams underneath? In which case I definitely do not agree that the part with the helicopter deckhouse is higher than the rest of the ship. The base foundation is clearly the same height everywhere on that ship except the bow area where it starts sloping upwards, and represents the 01-level of the ship.
View attachment 31214

I'll clarify what I mean by base foundation below.

If the base structure is mean to house testing equipment, then it has zero bearing on the external paint height. If nobody cares if the paint is half a meter taller, then it probably has no relevance to anything meaningful. Maybe I'm just not getting what you mean by "base foundation". Maybe you can point out exactly which structures you mean by this in a photo.

Okay, I'll do that.

(Note, the photo below is the merging of two separate photos put together for ease of reference, that's why it looks "cropped")

So, the two parts of the mock up circled in green are what I was referring to by "base foundation/s".

Atop the two base foundations, sits what I believe to be the more representative parts of the mock up (most of which have not yet been built during when this photo was taken, in early 2014). I believe the base foundations are the structural foundations which provide the... foundations for the top side structures to be built upon, such as the bridge, the smoke stack, the helicopter hangar, such as the mock up built them. The base foundations may also have other roles, such as storing testing equipment or mock up specific technical roles, but they also form the structural foundations for which the topside mock up structures are built upon.

Below the base foundation, is the blue line, which I've described variously as the "mock up platform" in the past. This is the elevated platform upon which the "base foundation" sits on, as well as other parts of the mock up such as the mock up PJ-38 main gun.

Below the blue line is a further red box, which I've never really brought up in the past, but I suppose can be called the "elevated crossbeam structures" or "elevated structures" for short. Obviously, we can see that there is a building below the bridge/deckhouse part of the platform, which is likely continuous with that part of the "base foundation," both to provide access to the mock up overall but also to

However, for the relevance of what I've been referring to in my last few posts, the "base foundation" is the circled in green.