CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Bltizo said:

I can understand that, though my logic behind 002 having a dual band radar (or tbh it might be better to just call it having two sets of radar) is that it would be the same primary radar set as 055, which of course has been suggested to have an X band aesa to complement its S band array.

I also think the configuration of the openings on the 002 mock up are... fairly distinctive. While I'm sure the smaller openings could definitely be for something else like ECM arrays, communication arrays or what not, I think the most likely contender is for an X band aesa especially if it is the same type that may be seen on 055.

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Suggested by random people does not qualify for "likely" placement. The 055 does not actually need a separate higher frequency radar. It is just pure speculation that the 052C/D's S/C radar has been split into separate physical entities for the 055. Those holes on the mast could be for any number of things, not just an X-band or C-band AESA.

Also, that mockup most definitely does not have anything distinctive in terms of separate faces for two different sets of radar per face. It's a giant mess and saying that it will likely have a dual band radar at this stage is extremely premature.

Iron Man said:

Suggested by random people does not qualify for "likely" placement. The 055 does not actually need a separate higher frequency radar. It is just pure speculation that the 052C/D's S/C radar has been split into separate physical entities for the 055. Those holes on the mast could be for any number of things, not just an X-band or C-band AESA.

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Well, we will see. I believe that two years ago when big shrimp confirmation of 055 first broke, a write up by pop3 did say that he expected an X band AESA on 055.

So while I understand your reservations, I think the possibility of an X band AESA on 055 to be in good running as a subsystem on the ship.

Also, that mockup most definitely does not have anything distinctive in terms of separate faces for two different sets of radar per face. It's a giant mess and saying that it will likely have a dual band radar at this stage is extremely premature.

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It looks a bit messy, but I think that's mostly because of the rust/paint on the island and the scaffolding. Take away all that, and I would argue that the placement of the small holes and larger hole could quite sensibly be perceived to be part of a potential dual radar set up.

As for whether it's premature to call such a set up "likely" or not... I think that's pretty dependent on our differing and underlying views of how likely a dual S band/X band set up on 055 will be.

Bltizo said:

Well, we will see. I believe that two years ago when big shrimp confirmation of 055 first broke, a write up by pop3 did say that he expected an X band AESA on 055.

So while I understand your reservations, I think the possibility of an X band AESA on 055 to be in good running as a subsystem on the ship.




It looks a bit messy, but I think that's mostly because of the rust/paint on the island and the scaffolding. Take away all that, and I would argue that the placement of the small holes and larger hole could quite sensibly be perceived to be part of a potential dual radar set up.

As for whether it's premature to call such a set up "likely" or not... I think that's pretty dependent on our differing and underlying views of how likely a dual S band/X band set up on 055 will be.

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I agree that if a dual band radar appeared on the 055, it will likely appear on CV-18. On the other hand, I do not judge it to be "likely" that such a radar will appear on the 055, merely that we have no idea whether this is the case or not, and the holes on the 055 mockup do not give us any answers. As for pop3, I'd like to see that quote and see if he's speculating or giving us insider information.

Iron Man said:

I agree that if a dual band radar appeared on the 055, it will likely appear on CV-18. On the other hand, I do not judge it to be "likely" that such a radar will appear on the 055, merely that we have no idea whether this is the case or not, and the holes on the 055 mockup do not give us any answers.

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Okay I consider that a fair enough position.
However I'd advise against calling a potential S band and X band aesa pairing as a "dual band radar" as that elicits thoughts of the USN's DBR system which operates slightly differently to how having two sets of radars may operate and having the results of both be integrated by the ship's combat system. If 055 does have an S band and X band aesa

As for pop3, I'd like to see that quote and see if he's speculating or giving us insider information.

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It was so long ago I probably can't be able to find it. Though at the time I think he was probably speculating from what I recall of what he wrote.


That said, I personally think that even without the testimony of a big shrimp, an X band aesa on 055 would be quite a reasonable and expected subsystem for the ship, though it definitely wouldn't be an argument I'd try to press given the overall relative lack of information about what 055's sensor fit will be.

Bltizo said:

Okay I consider that a fair enough position.
However I'd advise against calling a potential S band and X band aesa pairing as a "dual band radar" as that elicits thoughts of the USN's DBR system which operates slightly differently to how having two sets of radars may operate and having the results of both be integrated by the ship's combat system. If 055 does have an S band and X band aesa

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No need to "advise" anything, especially since you'd be "advising" yourself here. We both know we're talking about a dual band radar whether it's X/S, X/C or Q/R/Z/B or whether it's called "dual band" or "two individual band radars working together but not considered a set" radar, or whatever.

Bltizo said:

It was so long ago I probably can't be able to find it. Though at the time I think he was probably speculating from what I recall of what he wrote.


That said, I personally think that even without the testimony of a big shrimp, an X band aesa on 055 would be quite a reasonable and expected subsystem for the ship, though it definitely wouldn't be an argument I'd try to press given the overall relative lack of information about what 055's sensor fit will be.

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Reasonable maybe, expected certainly not. Expected means you think it's probably on board. This again is unwarranted based on total lack of information.

kwaigonegin said:

Each DBR panel provides 120 degrees so only 3 are needed for complete spherical coverage.

Ironically the DBRs on the Ford will be more capable than subsequent ships in her class. I believe CVN 79 onwards will have a less capable DBRs

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AN/SPY-3
The EASR suite’s initial per-unit cost will be about $180 million less than the DBR, for which the estimate is about $500 million

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A FFG price ...

From global times more overseas planned for carrier
China eyes building more aircraft carriers
By Liu Xin and Liu Caiyu Source:Global Times Published: 2017/4/20 23:33:40

China's military is eyeing more aircraft carriers to enhance its capabilities, experts said, as the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Daily reported the achievements of the Chinese navy since 1949.

Sunday marks the 68th anniversary of the founding of the Chinese navy, with the PLA Daily listing the navy's achievements, including escorting ships at sea, building an aircraft battle group, and joint military exercises.

As a country with an 18,000 kilometer-long coastline and vast maritime resources under its watch, China needs to build a strong navy to protect its sovereignty and maritime interests, safeguard the security of strategic maritime channels and engage in international cooperation amid mounting maritime disputes and challenging maritime safety conditions, the PLA Daily said on Thursday.

China has enhanced the battle capabilities of its aircraft carrier, with more than 10 pilots from carrier-based jet fighters and commanders getting their certificates, making China one of the few countries capable of training its own pilots for aircraft carriers, the PLA Daily report said.

"In the long run, China needs to develop its own aircraft carrier battle teams, with at least six aircraft carriers, maritime forces led by guided missile destroyers, as well as attack submarines," Xu Guangyu, a senior advisor to the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times.

"It was a big step for China to enhance the fighting capability after its aircraft carrier completed a live-fire drill, conducting exercises in various regions and training in the western Pacific Ocean for the first time in 2016," read the report.

The marine corps also needs to be beefed up to around 80,000 to 100,000 to offer offshore support, or 5 percent of the PLA, he added.

These aircraft carriers will enable the PLA Navy to break through the first island chain involving South Korea, Japan, Taiwan island and the Philippines to achieve command of the sea, Xu said.

"China will build about 10 more bases for the six aircraft carriers," Xu said, adding that they can be built around countries friendly to China, such as Pakistan.

"Hopefully, China could have bases in every continent, but that depends on countries which would like to cooperate with China," Xu said.

China is close to completing its second aircraft carrier, which will begin service by 2020, China Central Television reported, citing military experts.

The PLA Daily report also said patrols to safeguard China's maritime interests have been standardized, with more than 100 patrol boats and jet fighters patrolling key areas.

Iron Man said:

No need to "advise" anything, especially since you'd be "advising" yourself here. We both know we're talking about a dual band radar whether it's X/S, X/C or Q/R/Z/B or whether it's called "dual band" or "two individual band radars working together but not considered a set" radar, or whatever.

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Wait what?
At this moment I have no position on whether a potential X band + S band set up on 055 (or 002) would be two separate radar systems integrated by a combat system, or whether it would be two arrays as part of the same radar system.

The reason I point out the warning about the term "dual band radar" is because it makes one think of the US Navy's dual band radar system which is a system which has two arrays as part of the same radar system rather than two separate radar systems integrated by a combat system. This isn't for you by the way, but more for the general understanding of others reading this who may be confused between what "dual band radar" means.

Reasonable maybe, expected certainly not. Expected means you think it's probably on board. This again is unwarranted based on total lack of information.

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I'd probably say something like "it's reasonable to expect 055 may be equipped with an X band aesa", but whatever.

Bltizo said:

Wait what?
At this moment I have no position on whether a potential X band + S band set up on 055 (or 002) would be two separate radar systems integrated by a combat system, or whether it would be two arrays as part of the same radar system.

The reason I point out the warning about the term "dual band radar" is because it makes one think of the US Navy's dual band radar system which is a system which has two arrays as part of the same radar system rather than two separate radar systems integrated by a combat system. This isn't for you by the way, but more for the general understanding of others reading this who may be confused between what "dual band radar" means.

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You yourself used the exact wording multiple times already in this thread, so you are apparently advising yourself not to use it for fear of confusing it with the USN's DBR. BTW, you don't know if the DBR is a "system which has two arrays as part of the same radar system rather than two separate radar systems integrated by a combat system". It could easily very well be exactly two separate sets of radar integrated by a combat system. In fact I would press you to state exactly what the (presumably software) differences between your two hypothetical distinctions would actually be in reality. Additionally, you don't know what the exact relationship between a hypothetical 055 S array and X/C array would be either.

Bltizo said:

I'd probably say something like "it's reasonable to expect 055 may be equipped with an X band aesa", but whatever.

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Sure, but that's not what you said.

Iron Man said:

You yourself used the exact wording multiple times already in this thread, so you are apparently advising yourself not to use it for fear of confusing it with the USN's DBR.

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Yes, that was also a dubious use of the term on my part as well and my caution about the term DBR is for everyone.

BTW, you don't know if the DBR is a "system which has two arrays as part of the same radar system rather than two separate radar systems integrated by a combat system". It could easily very well be exactly two separate sets of radar integrated by a combat system. In fact I would press you to state exactly what the (presumably software) differences between your two hypothetical distinctions would actually be in reality. Additionally, you don't know what the exact relationship between a hypothetical 055 S array and X/C array would be either.

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Sure, well the USN's Dual Band Radar to my understanding consists of the X band SPY-3 and the S band SPY-4, both of which use a single "resource manager" which to my understanding means when both arrays are installed on a ship (as on the USS Ford) it means both are considered to be a single radar system.


"The Dual Band Radar (DBR) is the first radar system in the U.S. Navy fleet capable of simultaneously operating over two frequency ranges (S-band and X-band), coordinated by a single resource manager. It combines the functionality of the X-band AN/SPY-3 Multifunction Radar and the S-band Volume Surveillance Radar (VSR) to provide an unprecedented level of performance and capability to detect and track hostile targets."

"The VSR/S4R’s nearest competitor would be Thales’ SMART-L external link, an active array L-band/D-band radar that equips a number of European air defense ships, and South Korea’s Dokdo Class LHDs. Unlike the DBR, however, the ships carrying SMART-L variants use the conventional approach of completely separate radar systems, integrated by the ship’s combat system."

Similarly, it appears that the eventual "full" AMDR combining the AMDR-S/SPY-6 and AMDR-X will seek to have a "dual band" function as well, similar to DBR.

"Most current warships use two different types of radars to scan large areas and for focused targeting. The data from these separate pieces of equipment is integrated in a ship’s combat system. Dual-band radars combine both sensor systems with the same electronics and software."


And yes, of course we don't know what the relationship between a hypothetical S band and X band array would be on the 055, that is why I think it would be better be on the more cautious side and avoid the term dual band radar.

Sure, but that's not what you said.

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Well I said "I personally think that even without the testimony of a big shrimp, an X band aesa on 055 would be quite a reasonable and expected subsystem for the ship," so the difference is between "reasonable and expected" versus "reasonable to expect". The meaning of both differs slightly but in the end both statements express a belief that it will probably be on board.