Trade War with China

Equation said:

It had already happen and thanks to the many(not all) racist trump supporters and their MAGA agenda. Funny how right wing nationalists a growing threat to peace in this country but yet many conservatives don't even want to tackle the problem head on, but rather go after the "threat" of migrants from South Americans, China trade, 'Liberals' etc.

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This is definately a racist thing. AMERICA, the land of the free, is supposed to welcolm all immigrants. Well, at least thats what the white folks been telling themselves, and enforced with films and images of statute of liberty awaiting migrants arriving in New york.
However, the story is different if you are not white. "Chinese exclusion law" anyone?

Air Force Brat said:

Yet people did steal F-35 secrets didn't they?? they're not dead or beaten to death?? are they???

I get your whole point, and I agree with 99% of what you are saying, my Brother's DR. at MD Anderson is Chinese, to be honest my brother really didn't feel the typical connection??? in fact to quote my Brother?? he imagined he thought?? "the dumb sum-bitch is gonna die anyway"??? so why get too excited???

My Brother has hosted Chinese Pork Producer's at many of the farms where he is the "pork guru", there is a Chinese pork production video featuring my Brother, he's kind of a folk hero in that community in China, so he tells me....

Now, they've had a chance to get to know one another, My Brother's confidence level/HOPE has gone way up, and they've made a connection. In fact the Dr. has him down for a couple more chemo's and then to enter a clinical trial. So yes, America is a place where Dr's and other health professionals do wind up, and gain respect, and even make real friends... among their colleagues and patients.

If the situation there again were to be reversed??? do you feel an American would be accepted in China, I know of at least one American Dr. who was treating and caring for the Chinese out of a sense of "God's calling" if you will indulge me?? he was murdered by the Communists...

I love medicine, I believe it does bring people together, and I believe that we should help one another...

So its only fair to consider how these things would play out in a reciprocal circumstance, I would guarantee that in most situations, people in the US do treat others fairly and honestly, I would say we are in general a very open society, but if you and I were to visit any other country, its likely that it would take a while to be accepted?? yes???

our friend vesicles is a clinical researcher in Houston, maybe you can weigh in here Brother? I'm sure he likely has encountered some who might be less than kind and friendly?? I hope not, but people everywhere tend to be suspicious of people who are from another culture and country?

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If by "God's calling" you mean there is a missionary dimension to this one American Dr.'s work in China then that is an invasive and perhaps condescending dimension to his presence that was him looking to deliberately change what the locals believe thereby changing how the local system works, not necessarily for the better. This as well as other details of and reasons for his presence in China need to be considered to account for his experience.

Gatekeeper said:

This is definately a racist thing. AMERICA, the land of the free, is supposed to welcolm all immigrants. Well, at least thats what the white folks been telling themselves, and enforced with films and images of statute of liberty awaiting migrants arriving in New york.
However, the story is different if you are not white. "Chinese exclusion law" anyone?

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Yes Racial profiling and whipping up fear of China and chinese is the bane of humanity and should be discarded
The world should listen to what Dr Mahathir has to say about China > He was asked Are you afraid of China? He said there is nothing to fear We have 2000 years of relation with China and not single time did they try to conquered us . Compare that to western country they are here for 2 years and they colonize us

Hendrik_2000 said:

Yes Racial profiling and whipping up fear of China and chinese is the bane of humanity and should be discarded
The world should listen to what Dr Mahathir has to say about China > He was asked Are you afraid of China? He said there is nothing to fear We have 2000 years of relation with China and not single time did they try to conquered us . Compare that to western country they are here for 2 years and they colonize us

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I will honestly tell you to read up more about Mahathir's personal opinions on China before you quote the man. To put it in simple terms, Mahathir is like any other politician, he will say whatever that suits the current political climate irregardless of principles or standing (ie: hypocrite). Few people actually knows or remember the time that Mahathir had a personal axe to grind against Chinese investments in Malaysia which was one of his main campaigning points during the election, that the ruling party was selling out the country (word for word that is what he said). Or what he had said to the Philippines during his visit. Some may like to quote the renegotiation of the ECRL as proof that Mahathir has some leverage with China, but honestly we have no idea what exactly when on behind those closed doors, nor was the minutes of the discussion made available to the public.
Point is its very unwise to cite a politician for inspiration. Especially one that has lived as long as Mahathir.

Viktor Jav said:

I will honestly tell you to read up more about Mahathir's personal opinions on China before you quote the man. To put it in simple terms, Mahathir is like any other politician, he will say whatever that suits the current political climate irregardless of principles or standing (ie: hypocrite). Few people actually knows or remember the time that Mahathir had a personal axe to grind against Chinese investments in Malaysia which was one of his main campaigning points during the election, that the ruling party was selling out the country (word for word that is what he said). Or what he had said to the Philippines during his visit. Some may like to quote the renegotiation of the ECRL as proof that Mahathir has some leverage with China, but honestly we have no idea what exactly when on behind those closed doors, nor was the minutes of the discussion made available to the public.
Point is its very unwise to cite a politician for inspiration. Especially one that has lived as long as Mahathir.

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His comment on having long time and peaceful relation with China is not just from today He did said the same thing on his last administration. so it is not expediency But it is his conviction based on knowing the history of Malaysia. There is always strain of anti Chinese in SEA but it recent occurrence. Mahathir specially resent his treatment when he was young man studying medicine in Singapore . He come from wealthy mamak family a mix between Indian and Malay But he complained he was discriminated. But he also aware of the historic relation so it is complex relation

After all Cheng Ho or Admiral Zheng He sailed to SEA and 5 times landed in Melaka and at that time the largest armada in the world with 200 ships and 27000 soldiers He could colonize Malaya at that time if he want it to. Mahathir mention this episode in his speech and he thanks China for not colonizing Malaya peninsula
But he didn't Instead he built trade and diplomatic relation cemented by marriage of Princess Hang Lipo and Sultan Mansyur Shah(king) it was mention Chronicle of Malay Kingdom



I am actually the biological result of this friendly interaction. When even before Zheng He time. Chinese start arriving in Malaya and SEA and they didn't colonize it instead they intermingling and even inter marry with the locals. Most mixed race are despised but instead this mix race are respected and leaders in the newly independent
Nation of Malaysia and Singapore Lee Kuan Yew is one of them but many more


Hang Li Po (: 漢麗寶; : Hàn Lìbǎo, or Wang Lìbǎo) was the fifth wife of (reigned 1456-1477). She was bestowed with the Title Hang by the Sultan for her adoption of Malay Customs. She was supposedly given by Ming China, but it is disputed whether Hang Li Po ever existed since she was never recorded in records. However, there are records of Malaccan ambassadors to China.

Her vast entourage was recorded to be 500 followers and Sultan Mansur Shah provide a hill as their settlement, now known as Bukit Cina, as a gift to his new Chinese bride, Princess Hang Li Po, in the mid-15th century. Now, there are more than 12,000 graves in the cemetery and the oldest dates back to 1622.

Intention does not necessarily translate into capability. For the sake of academic purposes here, even if Zheng Ho was of the mind to do so, it is highly unlikely that China could have colonized the Malayan Peninsular. For one it is too far and too remote for any direct over sight, the sea alone will prove to be the biggest obstacle. 27000 men while being a large number for a fleet at the time no where even reach the bare minimum for a successful colonization. It took the Portuguese 3 tries to actually take Malacca, and that is with vastly superior firepower and tactics. So whatever Mahathir said was of little consequences or bearings. Peace at the time was more due to distance than any actual mutual understanding, that is so long as the SEA kingdoms acknowledge Chinese influence, they are largely left to themselves. China itself found the hard way of how difficult it is to actually exert direct influence and power during the Mongol invasion of Majapahit way back in the 1200s which was caused due to a Majapahit snub at Yuan diplomatic overtures at the time.


Mahathir is far from the lofty supporter of Sino relations that many people actually thinks that he is, quit the opposite. He can be more accurately be stated as an opportunist. The man is quit happy to bash local Chinese and yet curry favour of those of foreign origins despite know where the true allegiances of both sides lies. But so long as it was gobbled up by the Malay supremacist it was all good and dandy.

Also for the matter of Hang Li Po, whether or not this persona actually existed and played the role so alleged is still a matter of debate.

I think you under rate the capability of Cheng Ho armada It is not just pomp and show of force The fleet do have real punch. the main purpose of the fleet is to awe the locals as to the supremacy of Chinese naval power and the primacy Chinese civilization. It was intended to bring tribute from SEA countries

Tribute has negative connotation in western world But nothing like subjugation and humiliation of the lesser kingdom. Tribute is a privilege It mean you have the right to trade with middle kingdom and protected from other predator. the Okinawan still celebrate this relation till this day complete with the investiture of Ryu Kyu kingdom
Malay suffer many attack from the Thai and Vietnam kingdom By aligning and accept Chinese suzerainty. She ensure the safety of Malay kingdom True enough the Vietnamese attack Malay in 1469

In the 9th month of the year 1481 envoys arrived with the [......] Malacca again sent envoys to China in 1481 to inform the Chinese that, while Malaccan envoys were returning to Malacca from China in 1469, the

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attacked the Malaccans, killing some of them while castrating the young and enslaving them. The Malaccans reported that

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was in control of Champa and also sought to conquer Malacca, but the Malaccans did not fight back, because they did not want to fight against another state that was a tributary to China without permission from the Chinese. They requested to confront the Vietnamese delegation to

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which was in China at the time, but the Chinese informed them since the incident was years old, they could do nothing about it, and the Emperor sent a letter to the Vietnamese ruler reproaching him for the incident. The Chinese Emperor also ordered the Malaccans to raise soldiers and fight back with violent force if the Vietnamese attacked them again

As to Chinese navy is incapable of fighting you need to read the history again here it is They did battle the recalcitrant Ceylon king and Palembang pirate


Just because Hang Lipo is not mention in Ming chronicle does not mean she does not exist. In those Days Chinese women are gifted as bride to the lesser king on the request of the lesser king. But they are not necessarily blood relative Some time the sly emperor sent their palace maid or lesser concubine as substitute to the real princess. Not being of high born the chronicler does not think it is important enough to record it in the history

But he Malay chronicle did record the existence of Hang Lipo

Hendrik_2000 said:

I think you under rate the capability of Cheng Ho armada It is not just pomp and show of force The fleet do have real punch. the main purpose of the fleet is to awe the locals as to the supremacy of Chinese naval power and the primacy Chinese civilization. It was intended to bring tribute from SEA countries

Tribute has negative connotation in western world But nothing like subjugation and humiliation of the lesser kingdom. Tribute is a privilege It mean you have the right to trade with middle kingdom and protected from other predator. the Okinawan still celebrate this relation till this day complete with the investiture of Ryu Kyu kingdom
Malay suffer many attack from the Thai and Vietnam kingdom By aligning and accept Chinese suzerainty. She ensure the safety of Malay kingdom True enough the Vietnamese attack Malay in 1469

In the 9th month of the year 1481 envoys arrived with the [......] Malacca again sent envoys to China in 1481 to inform the Chinese that, while Malaccan envoys were returning to Malacca from China in 1469, the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

attacked the Malaccans, killing some of them while castrating the young and enslaving them. The Malaccans reported that

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

was in control of Champa and also sought to conquer Malacca, but the Malaccans did not fight back, because they did not want to fight against another state that was a tributary to China without permission from the Chinese. They requested to confront the Vietnamese delegation to

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

which was in China at the time, but the Chinese informed them since the incident was years old, they could do nothing about it, and the Emperor sent a letter to the Vietnamese ruler reproaching him for the incident. The Chinese Emperor also ordered the Malaccans to raise soldiers and fight back with violent force if the Vietnamese attacked them again

As to Chinese navy is incapable of fighting you need to read the history again here it is They did battle the recalcitrant Ceylon king and Palembang pirate

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Just because Hang Lipo is not mention in Ming chronicle does not mean she does not exist. In those Days Chinese women are gifted as bride to the lesser king on the request of the lesser king. But they are not necessarily blood relative Some time the sly emperor sent their palace maid or lesser concubine as substitute to the real princess. Not being of high born the chronicler does not think it is important enough to record it in the history

But he Malay chronicle did record the existence of Hang Lipo

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I never said that they are incapable of fighting, but what you are suggesting them to do is far far more complex than just merely swinging a sword or drawing a bow. You are asking that they colonize and hold a new, foreign and most certainly hostile land. Such an endeavor would require more than just fighting, it needs logistics, planning, administration and finances. Far more than what a fleet that was mainly for diplomatic and military goals can provide.
The tributary system has it pros and cons, I will not delve much into the matter here but suffice to say that it is more a necessity than any mutual admiration or necessity. Right to trade is a given, but protection ? Not necessarily so. It depends on whether China could or in some situations, found it convenient to do so. Most of the time, many kingdoms relied on a perceived Chinese retaliation against rivals for their protection, failing that they will have to fend for themselves. As such the situation between Malacca and Vietnam as you have so helpfully shown. The Okinawans certainly recorded and remembered the Ryu Kyu kingdom, but they have not make much mention or admiration of the tributary system between it and the Ming Dynasty. Did they make accurate historical records of it? Certainly yes. But there is little evidence that they put much celebration on it.
The culture and system of Heqing is greatly documented, that I won't deny. But insofar there is little if no corroborating evidence to suggest that Hang Li Po ever existed in the fashion and manner that Malay chroniclers claimed. All we have to go on is the mere written record of one side, and a well that is named after the person in question. That the Ming Dynasty itself did not have a record of a royal princess marrying the Malacca Sultan itself presents a highly skeptical view on Hang Li Po.

“What’s the cadet motto at West Point? You will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do. I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole. It’s — it was like — we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment.” — Texas A&M University (April 15, 2019)

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Everyday he says we Chinese lie, cheat, and steal.

Here you have him saying they love doing this stuff in the US government and all the audience are clapping and cheering.

The Democrats are pretty dumb if they think they can adopt Trump's anti-China tactics. They're in a worse position than Trump. Trump's followers even when hit by China's tariffs are still loyal. If Trump's trade war is still going on if a Democrat is President, people will blame the Democrats for the trade war being unresolved. China can not buy US soybeans and farmers will blame the Democrats. China is not going to drop tariffs if the US still has tariffs on China still in place. So Trump is trying to get China to shift tariffs to sectors in the US that aren't loyal to Trump. Trump is trying to get a foreign power to harm Americans that are not personally and politically friendly to Trump and his political allies are still loyal. The arrogant jealousy of the Democrats wanting that kind of loyalty thinking they're better than Trump so they are better for Trump's base. Trump's trade war has exposed many myths about trade. This is the first time I've seen where there's not this automatic blame on China in general. Politicians still do because if it's not China's fault, then it's their fault.