Trade War with China

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
our friend vesicles is a clinical researcher in Houston, maybe you can weigh in here Brother? I'm sure he likely has encountered some who might be less than kind and friendly?? I hope not, but people everywhere tend to be suspicious of people who are from another culture and country?
Let me elaborate a little on this. I am from a similar academic background to Vesicles. In a highly respected academic setting amongst well-educated researchers, there is very little (to no) nationalistic hostility. I can tell you I've trained at many many academic institutes across America and NEVER ONCE faced direct racial discrimination in a professional setting before. (Direct racism happens at Walmart, not Harvard LOL) Scientists are very nice to each other; lab directors like to put together highly diverse teams with members from all over the world. We get along juuuuust fine because we are interested in scientific breakthroughs and we have nothing but respect for those who can achieve them and those who can work with us to achieve them regardless of race. We want to work together harmoniously to better science.

What will make things ugly is when nasty aggressive agencies whose main agenda is national preservation rather than science get put into science and in a very powerful position. The FBI don't care that you have a great lab of people who love and trust each other. They don't even care that your project has the potential to cure XXX disease. The FBI sees that one member is Chinese so they look up his emails. They see that he has discussed things with his former colleagues in China before. Because they are not professional scientists, they are not truly qualified to understand the nature of the discussions but it makes them uncomfortable that a Chinese guy in an American lab is communicating with scientists in China. Their solution is to call him a spy, deport him, and tear him out of the American team that relied on him for a critical part of their research. (Even if they do eventually figure out he hasn't committed a crime, they do so after an extremely long and humiliating investigation of him, ruining his reputation at the institute and his comfort level staying in the US.) Then, they make rules so the lab can't hire more people from China unless its fails to recruit an American who can do the job. So you get Dave, 9-5 guy who "kinda" knows how to do it but not in a world-leading way. Now your research is stalled. So you argue that Dave wasn't really qualified and you need to hire another guy from China who chooses to work 120 hours a week for $45K and knows the technique like be was trained from the womb. But multiple efforts failed because their visas were denied. After a few years, the American lab director reads on Science or Cell that the guy who was called a spy and deported from his lab continued his work in China and completed the research his team was on track to complete together. Or if this is a field in which China is truly lacking, maybe he went to Switzerland and completed his work there with a Swiss team. That's how being paranoid and xenophobic hinders science.
 
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localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
^ There is very little direct racism in science because it is more well hidden. Professionals despise H1B works and overseas grad students for driving down wages. They also don't like it when people talk in a different language in the lab. Add in all this new suspicion and you can easily see that there's now a reluctance hire Chinese scientists.

TBH I was very surprised initially how many people around me supported Trump's anti-H1B proposals.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
^ There is very little direct racism in science because it is more well hidden. Professionals despise H1B works and overseas grad students for driving down wages. They also don't like it when people talk in a different language in the lab. Add in all this new suspicion and you can easily see that there's now a reluctance hire Chinese scientists.
That's all true but it is overridden when the PI sees his Chinese post docs doing 3 people's worth of work for 1 person's pay. Just like how Americans talk about Made in USA but buy Made in China. And over time, personal trust and relationships do develop from working together.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
^ There is very little direct racism in science because it is more well hidden. Professionals despise H1B works and overseas grad students for driving down wages. They also don't like it when people talk in a different language in the lab. Add in all this new suspicion and you can easily see that there's now a reluctance hire Chinese scientists.

TBH I was very surprised initially how many people around me supported Trump's anti-H1B proposals.
You should not be.talking in a.different languange in the first place
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
That's all true but it is overridden when the PI sees his Chinese post docs doing 3 people's worth of work for 1 person's pay. Just like how Americans talk about Made in USA but buy Made in China. And over time, personal trust and relationships do develop from working together.
It's great for the boss, but not worth it for everyone else. Whites don't do Academia because it's tough and poor pay. The ones who do, do it out of passion and end up doing quite well. Asians do it out of necessity. Blacks and Hispanics don't even try despite the incentives, they all go to better paying jobs and end up underrepresented.

In the end, you end up with this poor dynamic of high Asian representation and the current situation.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The US charging China of stealing is based on if China has something that the US doesn't want them to have, it must have been stolen. The Chinese are intellectually inferior to white people. They can't invent anything on their own so it must have been stolen if Chinese have it and the US doesn't want them to have it. I was in the skyscraper forum back when city Ferris wheels were big. So China was building one in I think was Beijing and had conceptual drawings and people including one of the moderators were charging it was stolen from Singapore because it looked very similar. Funny they didn't charge that Singapore stole it from the London Eye because it looked very similar to that one. So if you looked at the materials of the conceptual artist depictions, there was a company name behind the Chinese Ferris wheel design. It was the same foreign company behind the one in Singapore and the London Eye. So even when you contract the same company to build your Ferris wheel, you're still stealing. Manny Pacquiao and President Duterte of the Philippines have made homophobic comments that people around the world have protested. They learned it from their Christian masters who conquered them yet somehow the Christians don't want to take credit? The US likes to accuse others of crimes because the only way you can't be a criminal in their eyes is to obey them blindly without challenge. That's the only way you aren't a threat to them. There goes that bull about innocent until proven guilty.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
It is a long article click the link for complete article
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China Isn’t Cheating on Trade

Democrats and Republicans echo Trump’s anti-Beijing rhetoric, but escalating tensions could leave Americans far worse off.

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Professor of journalism at the City University of New York
lead_720_405.jpg

A port in Qingdao, in eastern China's Shandong provinceSTR / AFP / GETTY
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suggest that in the coming weeks, the United States and China will sign an agreement that repeals the tariffs the two nations have been levying on each other’s goods for the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. If past behavior is any guide, Donald Trump will call it the greatest deal ever, and global markets will
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. But the deal will likely constitute only a modest pause in Washington’s growing hostility toward Beijing.


That’s partly because, for Trump, no agreement is truly final. The president, The New York Times recently
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, “has repeatedly agreed to new trade terms with foreign partners, then talked about undoing those deals to achieve additional goals.” Trump has already
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
on commitments made as part of the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, which he hailed as “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” in October.

But the slide toward cold war with China will likely continue for reasons that go beyond Trump himself. While Trump’s language is particularly extreme—during the 2016 campaign, he portrayed the relationship between the Chinese and American economies
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
—describing Beijing’s economic behavior as predatory, and demanding that America respond with punishments and threats, has become commonplace in both parties. From Elizabeth Warren, who earlier this year claimed that China has “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,” to Marco Rubio, who last year tweeted that the Chinese aim to “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,” leading Democrats and Republicans describe China’s economic practices as uniquely malevolent and getting worse. In fact, neither accusation is true.

The u.s.-china relationship is, of course, about more than economics.

Politically, Beijing is growing more authoritarian, as evidenced by its Orwellian domestic-surveillance policies, its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of Muslim Uighurs, and the cult of personality now developing around Chinese President Xi Jinping. Militarily, China increasingly dominates the South China Sea. And before Trump took office, these illiberal and expansionist trends were already prompting disillusionment and alarm among
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in the United States.

What has changed in the Trump era is that America’s economic ties to China—once the ballast that stabilized a relationship buffeted by tensions over geopolitics and human rights—are now driving the antagonism. On the subject of China, as Mike Pence
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in October at the Hudson Institute, “a new consensus”—that only a far tougher U.S. trade policy can prevent Beijing from continuing to rip off America—“is rising across America.” Only three years ago, during the 2016 presidential campaign, Rubio
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that “we need to be very careful with tariffs” against China because the cost “gets passed on in the price to the consumer.” Last year, he
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Trump for not implementing tariffs fast enough. For their part, top Democrats have scrambled to out-hawk Trump on trade. In May, when Trump retreated from sanctions against the Chinese telecommunications giant ZTE, he was reprimanded by senators as diverse as
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,
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, and
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. Already, top
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and
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in Congress are warning that Trump’s China trade deal won’t be tough enough.

Complaints like these have come to dominate Beltway discourse not because the evidence underlying them is particularly strong. It isn’t. They have come to dominate Beltway discourse because Democrats and Republicans both believe that Trump’s anti-China message helped him win Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin, and that the path to the presidency runs through those states again in 2020. The political incentive to be tough on China over trade today is blinding politicians to the risks of an escalating conflict that could leave Americans poorer, less free, and—perhaps—even at war.

In 1961, the psychologist Charles Osgood
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of what he termed the “cold-war mentality”: a tendency “to perceive our adversaries as all bad and to perceive ourselves as all good.” Cold wars make it harder to acknowledge that competitors have legitimate fears and interests. It was a cold-war mentality that kept America’s leaders from recognizing that America’s foes in Vietnam saw themselves as fighting for national independence, not global communist domination.


The perception that China is cheating America economically is having a similarly befogging effect today.

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,” in which rising wages undermine its advantage as a center of low-cost manufacturing before it develops the capacity to produce higher-value goods. China worries that unless it moves from assembling iPhones to inventing them, economic growth will stagnate and popular unrest will follow.............(cont) here
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
It's great for the boss, but not worth it for everyone else. Whites don't do Academia because it's tough and poor pay. The ones who do, do it out of passion and end up doing quite well. Asians do it out of necessity. Blacks and Hispanics don't even try despite the incentives, they all go to better paying jobs and end up underrepresented.

In the end, you end up with this poor dynamic of high Asian representation and the current situation.

Well, if (many) European Americans had the choice, they would go for academia too. Most of them are stuck working service sector jobs. They’re lucky if they get a good permanent employment, let alone time to educate themselves. Even after educating themselves, they face a steep collage debt that often just have them struggling with it the rest of their lives, unless they become exceptional, but only a few manages it.

Given how much money the US put on research, it is inevitable that they will have good returns. That in turn piques curiosity from some Chinese researchers.

I would say Chinese people are generally too naive and too sheltered. Most researchers sincerely believe they are going to advance mankind together. They get shown a high paycheck, but once they arrive there they face US work culture, which is near Japanese in how draconian it is, accentuated by racist attitudes. Their research is appropriated by US authorities and once they outlive their usefulness, they’re sidelined.

Many Chinese researchers really think there’s nothing wrong with assisting technology development in a country that openly threatens not just China, but international institutions and other nations.

So about Trump’s attempt to make a Chinese exclusion act 2.0, I welcome it wholeheartedly. He can stop the 0.00001% naive suckers who thinks aiding and abetting the enemy is OK. 0% of Americans will be helping Chinese researchers anyways. They’re all about asking “take take take”, so if Trump wants to take a bit less, then he’s more than welcome, even if it’s for racist reasons.
 

Franklin

Captain
It is a long article click the link for complete article
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China Isn’t Cheating on Trade

Democrats and Republicans echo Trump’s anti-Beijing rhetoric, but escalating tensions could leave Americans far worse off.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Professor of journalism at the City University of New York
lead_720_405.jpg

A port in Qingdao, in eastern China's Shandong provinceSTR / AFP / GETTY
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
suggest that in the coming weeks, the United States and China will sign an agreement that repeals the tariffs the two nations have been levying on each other’s goods for the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. If past behavior is any guide, Donald Trump will call it the greatest deal ever, and global markets will
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. But the deal will likely constitute only a modest pause in Washington’s growing hostility toward Beijing.


That’s partly because, for Trump, no agreement is truly final. The president, The New York Times recently
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, “has repeatedly agreed to new trade terms with foreign partners, then talked about undoing those deals to achieve additional goals.” Trump has already
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
on commitments made as part of the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, which he hailed as “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” in October.

But the slide toward cold war with China will likely continue for reasons that go beyond Trump himself. While Trump’s language is particularly extreme—during the 2016 campaign, he portrayed the relationship between the Chinese and American economies
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
—describing Beijing’s economic behavior as predatory, and demanding that America respond with punishments and threats, has become commonplace in both parties. From Elizabeth Warren, who earlier this year claimed that China has “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,” to Marco Rubio, who last year tweeted that the Chinese aim to “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,” leading Democrats and Republicans describe China’s economic practices as uniquely malevolent and getting worse. In fact, neither accusation is true.

The u.s.-china relationship is, of course, about more than economics.

Politically, Beijing is growing more authoritarian, as evidenced by its Orwellian domestic-surveillance policies, its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of Muslim Uighurs, and the cult of personality now developing around Chinese President Xi Jinping. Militarily, China increasingly dominates the South China Sea. And before Trump took office, these illiberal and expansionist trends were already prompting disillusionment and alarm among
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in the United States.

What has changed in the Trump era is that America’s economic ties to China—once the ballast that stabilized a relationship buffeted by tensions over geopolitics and human rights—are now driving the antagonism. On the subject of China, as Mike Pence
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in October at the Hudson Institute, “a new consensus”—that only a far tougher U.S. trade policy can prevent Beijing from continuing to rip off America—“is rising across America.” Only three years ago, during the 2016 presidential campaign, Rubio
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that “we need to be very careful with tariffs” against China because the cost “gets passed on in the price to the consumer.” Last year, he
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Trump for not implementing tariffs fast enough. For their part, top Democrats have scrambled to out-hawk Trump on trade. In May, when Trump retreated from sanctions against the Chinese telecommunications giant ZTE, he was reprimanded by senators as diverse as
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Already, top
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Congress are warning that Trump’s China trade deal won’t be tough enough.

Complaints like these have come to dominate Beltway discourse not because the evidence underlying them is particularly strong. It isn’t. They have come to dominate Beltway discourse because Democrats and Republicans both believe that Trump’s anti-China message helped him win Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin, and that the path to the presidency runs through those states again in 2020. The political incentive to be tough on China over trade today is blinding politicians to the risks of an escalating conflict that could leave Americans poorer, less free, and—perhaps—even at war.

In 1961, the psychologist Charles Osgood
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of what he termed the “cold-war mentality”: a tendency “to perceive our adversaries as all bad and to perceive ourselves as all good.” Cold wars make it harder to acknowledge that competitors have legitimate fears and interests. It was a cold-war mentality that kept America’s leaders from recognizing that America’s foes in Vietnam saw themselves as fighting for national independence, not global communist domination.


The perception that China is cheating America economically is having a similarly befogging effect today.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,” in which rising wages undermine its advantage as a center of low-cost manufacturing before it develops the capacity to produce higher-value goods. China worries that unless it moves from assembling iPhones to inventing them, economic growth will stagnate and popular unrest will follow.............(cont) here
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
My view is that if its indeed true that China is cheating and stealing in the way as they say. Then the solution is very simple just take China to task at the WTO or in the court rooms. The fact that they are in my view unable rather than unwilling to do so shows you that the reality on the ground is much more complicated. And on the accusation of currency manipulation. The US has more than 20 years the opportunity to label China a currency manipulator but they balk at the opportunity year after year when it is time to do so. That is also telling.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
On a more general sense, American society is based on the idea that once someone comes to America, s/he is American with an American home team and not a XXXese living in America with an American passport. Indeed, America relies on immigrants making contributions to the US, calling themselves American and America their home. To racially profile people is to unravel the very fibers that hold together American ideals and society; it is suicidal yet ironically instinctive for America to start profiling its citizens when it comes under challenge from a country that they originated from. Doing this pushes American culture from "we are all American" to "we are XXX living in America" and that makes more and more people (specifically Chinese in this case) realize that they are not American but rather being milked by Americans to raise America up over their own countries baited by a US passport. In the long run, it weakens American social structure, causing and accelerating American decay.

It had already happen and thanks to the many(not all) racist trump supporters and their MAGA agenda. Funny how right wing nationalists a growing threat to peace in this country but yet many conservatives don't even want to tackle the problem head on, but rather go after the "threat" of migrants from South Americans, China trade, 'Liberals' etc.
 
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