Trade War with China

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gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
It typically takes like 1-2 years to construct a factory's building from the earthworks to the construction proper. Then it takes 6 months to 1 year to install the tooling inside it. Any projects you see announced today most likely do not have the tooling yet. Then it takes more time to qualify the production process, assuming you have one, and sample chips before you begin production. SMIC already dominates some production process technology but all these new companies need their own process expertise. Which is not exactly cheap either.
DRAM manufacturing processes are also typically different from NAND production processes and in turn different from logic i.e. CPU design processes.
So they require separate investments. Even if you use some of the same basic tools, the way you apply them is different because the process is optimized for different components. You might want fast and leaky transistors, or slow and low power transistors, or something in between for CPUs. You might need to optimize for capacitors like in the case of DRAM.
Modern 3D NAND technology uses multi-level stacking techniques with many more levels than a CPU would have.

It takes a long time and lots of investment to get into the sector. The South Koreans got into it but it took them like a decade or a decade and a half to make something useful. Plus another decade to dominate the market. That was without tool import restrictions and a captive market inside South Korea for their products in the first years that Samsung was at it.
Plus a lot of stolen Japanese technology and know-how. Taiwan attempted to do the same thing and they pretty much failed because they never had the economies of scale or R&D base for it.

The tools, it depends on the tool. But you typically require a light source at the proper frequency with enough power output and efficiency. Then you require the ability to make optics, masks, etc. The industry for example has been working on EUV i.e. low wavelength tools for almost two decades now with limited success. "EUV" tools are at a frequency close to soft x-rays so a lot of regular optics techniques won't work with them. Only this year are products with it starting to come out. It is expected to become the main production technology over the next decade. I doubt China will have access to anything better than the previous light source technology with a limited level of immersion lithography thrown into it for the near future.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
It typically takes like 1-2 years to construct a factory's building from the earthworks to the construction proper. Then it takes 6 months to 1 year to install the tooling inside it. Any projects you see announced today most likely do not have the tooling yet. Then it takes more time to qualify the production process, assuming you have one, and sample chips before you begin production. SMIC already dominates some production process technology but all these new companies need their own process expertise. Which is not exactly cheap either.
DRAM manufacturing processes are also typically different from NAND production processes and in turn different from logic i.e. CPU design processes.
So they require separate investments. Even if you use some of the same basic tools, the way you apply them is different because the process is optimized for different components. You might want fast and leaky transistors, or slow and low power transistors, or something in between for CPUs. You might need to optimize for capacitors like in the case of DRAM.
Modern 3D NAND technology uses multi-level stacking techniques with many more levels than a CPU would have.

It takes a long time and lots of investment to get into the sector. The South Koreans got into it but it took them like a decade or a decade and a half to make something useful. Plus another decade to dominate the market. That was without tool import restrictions and a captive market inside South Korea for their products in the first years that Samsung was at it.
Plus a lot of stolen Japanese technology and know-how. Taiwan attempted to do the same thing and they pretty much failed because they never had the economies of scale or R&D base for it.

The tools, it depends on the tool. But you typically require a light source at the proper frequency with enough power output and efficiency. Then you require the ability to make optics, masks, etc. The industry for example has been working on EUV i.e. low wavelength tools for almost two decades now with limited success. "EUV" tools are at a frequency close to soft x-rays so a lot of regular optics techniques won't work with them. Only this year are products with it starting to come out. It is expected to become the main production technology over the next decade. I doubt China will have access to anything better than the previous light source technology with a limited level of immersion lithography thrown into it for the near future.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
14nm is not that fancy but it’s workable. Plus China makes most of the machinery and has a near monopoly on material required for this type of work, they just can’t afford to use it themselves due to (much) larger overseas companies undercutting them.

The local companies are very much waiting for market share and they’re finally getting some. IMO they should subsidize companies who refuse to outsource to speed along the process.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
There's always this thought in the back of my head.

What if China takes Taiwan + TSMC?


They have Ryzen + Arm designs. They getting machine from ASML. They getting people back from overseas. I think China can get there.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
There's always this thought in the back of my head.

What if China takes Taiwan + TSMC?


They have Ryzen + Arm designs. They getting machine from ASML. They getting people back from overseas. I think China can get there.

Violent solution won’t be okay until there’s a guarantee that ROC can’t hit the coastal cities. They’re effectively holding a few hundred thousand people hostage with rockets and artillery. Also there’s no telling if they will use the Chinese on the island as hostages either.

Beijing should focus on subsidizing the sector to match the US in scale, which would make local chips less expensive. They could also put anti dumping tariffs on US chips to make local manufacturers even more appealing. It wouldn’t even be tariff abuse because the US is quite frankly dumping the chips to undercut China and hurt local businesses.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
As long as China kept talking AI, 5G all those higher up application tech and neglecting fundamental science that dealing with control of light, electrons, atoms manipulation and molecules (Semiconductor equipment, product process tech development) China will be forever handicapped and hopeless.
I seeing current Chinese government extreme level of promotion of AI as evidences of their advisors being clueless, taking short cut..

Yeah, lil wisdom man said they got so many smart advisors.. Yeah right, Smart my where the sun doesn't shine..

You're woefully uninformed.

AI is so important in the future because we've had fundamental deep-learning breakthroughs, and now is the time to implement the theory and create solutions.

Given how chips and sensors are literally going to be in every device or component you can imagine, AI has been compared to the new "electricity" as it is going to revolutionise how the world works. And look at how big the electricity industry is.

Therefore the extreme promotion of AI applications by the Chinese government is a smart policy move, because it plays to China's strengths in terms of privacy, data availability, market size, superfast development, etc.

In terms of materials science research and quantum research, China does come out very highly in terms of the rankings, but it does take many years to commercialise the technology.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Right A1 provide and opening for China It is based on completely different principle than Von Neuman computer which is basically just sequential machine. It is level playing field
Just like EV(Electrical vehicle) and 5G it put China on the same level playing field or even more advanced than US, Japan
Anyway Trade or no Trade surplus keep piling up

China's imports surge 26.3 pct, exports rise 20.1 pct in Oct.


Xinhua, November 8, 2018

  1. China's imports surged 26.3 percent year on year in October, while exports rose 20.1 percent, with the pace of growth both beating expectations, data showed Thursday.

    The increases also accelerated from the 17.4-percent growth for imports seen in September and a rise of 17 percent for exports.

    Trade surplus stood at 233.63 billion yuan (about 33.76 billion U.S. dollars) last month, expanding from 213.23 billion yuan in September, according to data released by the General Administration of Customs (GAC).

    For the first 10 months of the year, China's foreign trade totaled 25.05 trillion yuan, up 11.3 percent from the same period last year.

    Foreign trade with the European Union, the country's biggest trade partner, climbed 8.4 percent year on year to 3.68 trillion yuan for January-October, GAC data showed.

    In the same period, trade with the United States, China's second-biggest trade partner, rose 7.4 percent to 3.44 trillion yuan, followed by the ASEAN, its third-largest trade partner, at 3.18 trillion yuan or 13.7 percent.

    In U.S. dollar-denominated terms, China's exports increased 15.6 percent year on year in October, while imports were up 21.4 percent.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is an article about the importance of A1 via JSch
This guy Tidalwave is clueless and read too much in western propaganda Most SOC company are built by fabless company. Qualcomm does not have their own foundry instead rely on TSMC The integrated Chip company like Intel is going the way of Dodo bird. Only Samsung has integrated fab the rest are Fabless

Chip industry's growth will reduce foreign reliance
By Fan Feifei | China Daily | Updated: 2018-11-07 11:06

5be2569fa310eff369050c85.jpeg

Chip industry's growth will reduce foreign reliance. [Photo/IC]

Echoing President Xi Jinping's call to boost the healthy development of the country's new generation of artificial intelligence (AI), Chinese technology companies attending the ongoing World Internet Conference in Wuzhen, East China's Zhejiang province, are intensifying efforts to develop their own artificial intelligence (AI) chips, as the country aims to become self-reliant in key technologies and lessen its dependence on foreign microprocessors.

In September, Chinese tech giant Alibaba Group Holding Ltd announced the establishment of a dedicated chip subsidiary aimed at creating customized AI chips and embedded processors to further support the tech giant's cloud and internet of things businesses, as well as drive the development of industry-specific applications.

The company plans to launch its first AI chip AliNPU, which could potentially support technologies used in autonomous driving, smart cities and smart logistics in the second half of next year, said Zhang Jianfeng, Alibaba chief technology officer, at the company's annual cloud computing conference in Hangzhou, Zhejiang province.

In April, Alibaba announced that it had fully acquired Hangzhou C-Sky Microsystems Co, which develops embedded central processing units and chip architecture, underscoring its commitment to the chip industry. "We are confident that our advantages in algorithm, data intelligence, computing power and domain knowledge on the back of Alibaba's diverse ecosystem will put us in a unique position to lead real technological breakthroughs in disruptive areas, such as quantum and chip technology," Zhang said.


China's largest telecom equipment maker and smartphone vendor Huawei Technologies Co unveiled two new chips for AI applications called Ascend 910 and Ascend 310.

Ascend 310 is designed for the low-power computing needs of smart devices, while Ascend 910, which will be available in the second quarter of 2019, is aimed at data centers. Huawei claims its chip can process more data at a faster rate than its competitors and help link networks in a matter of minutes.

The two chips will pit Huawei against major players such as Intel Corp, Qualcomm Inc and Nvidia Corp. "Huawei's AI strategy is to invest in basic research and talent development, build a full-stack, all-scenario AI portfolio and foster an open global ecosystem," said Xu Zhijun, rotating chairman of the company, at the Huawei Connect 2018 Conference in Shanghai in October. Xu added that these chips will not be sold as standalone products, because the company will develop products such as AI servers, AI accelerators and autonomous driving solutions based on these processors and sell them along with the chips to clients.

Huawei wants to get a piece of China's burgeoning AI market. A recent Tsinghua University report projects the Chinese AI market, which in 2017 grew 67 percent year-on-year to $3.55 billion, will increase by another 75 percent in 2018.


Besides, Chinese internet search giant Baidu Inc unveiled AI chip Kunlun, which can be built to meet the high performance requirements of a wide variety of AI fields and products including data centers, public clouds and autonomous vehicles.

These companies expect their respective chips to help their AI applications run better while lowering costs. The chips could also reduce these companies' dependency on processor makers whose products excel at performing the functions modern AI applications require.

Luo Weidong, chairman of Shenzhen Saiya Capital Management Co said: "The ZTE issue is like a wakeup call for the country's technology industry. The country will attach greater importance to the independent research and development of chips."

And Shu Qiquan, general manager of Shanghai Qianbo Fund, said domestic chip manufacturers still lag behind leading foreign competitors in chip design, material, and equipment. "The chip industry is in urgent need of talent and capital, and the authorities should provide financing channels and capital support for chip companies. The chip design, memory, graphic processing unit, packaging and testing, semiconductor equipment, and materials have great investment value."
 

Franklin

Captain
It typically takes like 1-2 years to construct a factory's building from the earthworks to the construction proper. Then it takes 6 months to 1 year to install the tooling inside it. Any projects you see announced today most likely do not have the tooling yet. Then it takes more time to qualify the production process, assuming you have one, and sample chips before you begin production. SMIC already dominates some production process technology but all these new companies need their own process expertise. Which is not exactly cheap either.
DRAM manufacturing processes are also typically different from NAND production processes and in turn different from logic i.e. CPU design processes.
So they require separate investments. Even if you use some of the same basic tools, the way you apply them is different because the process is optimized for different components. You might want fast and leaky transistors, or slow and low power transistors, or something in between for CPUs. You might need to optimize for capacitors like in the case of DRAM.
Modern 3D NAND technology uses multi-level stacking techniques with many more levels than a CPU would have.

It takes a long time and lots of investment to get into the sector. The South Koreans got into it but it took them like a decade or a decade and a half to make something useful. Plus another decade to dominate the market. That was without tool import restrictions and a captive market inside South Korea for their products in the first years that Samsung was at it.
Plus a lot of stolen Japanese technology and know-how. Taiwan attempted to do the same thing and they pretty much failed because they never had the economies of scale or R&D base for it.

The tools, it depends on the tool. But you typically require a light source at the proper frequency with enough power output and efficiency. Then you require the ability to make optics, masks, etc. The industry for example has been working on EUV i.e. low wavelength tools for almost two decades now with limited success. "EUV" tools are at a frequency close to soft x-rays so a lot of regular optics techniques won't work with them. Only this year are products with it starting to come out. It is expected to become the main production technology over the next decade. I doubt China will have access to anything better than the previous light source technology with a limited level of immersion lithography thrown into it for the near future.
China has 4 things going for it.

1. A large pool of talent. China graduates more than 4 million people with a STEM degree annually.

2. China has a large pool of savings it can draw from to fund these projects.

3. China has a HUGE internal market it can fall back on.

4. China has the determination to do it. This relates to China's history of missing out on the first 2 wave of industrialization and pay the price in terms of foreign aggression and backwardness. This is a extra motivation to succeed.

It will not be easy and it will take time but China will get there.
 
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