Trade War with China

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It seems like the US has not had a comprehensive and coherent strategy on how to counter China. Their overall intention is certainly to continue pushing China down like it did to the Soviets, Japan, and the Russians. However US policy has not always been as tough on China as it could have been if this is their desire, exposing a problem with bipartisan style politics.

But assuming Trump Et al. don't know what they're doing or aiming for would be too arrogant. The Americans have shown themselves to be cunning.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It seems like the US has not had a comprehensive and coherent strategy on how to counter China. Their overall intention is certainly to continue pushing China down like it did to the Soviets, Japan, and the Russians. However US policy has not always been as tough on China as it could have been if this is their desire, exposing a problem with bipartisan style politics.

But assuming Trump Et al. don't know what they're doing or aiming for would be too arrogant. The Americans have shown themselves to be cunning.

Normally you would be right, but no leader could hope to be a expert in every field. Which means the people he/she relies to advise them are key to how well said leader can deal with an area/issue.

In this regard, it is far from a pretty picture wrt the Trump administration, with clowns like Narvaro running the show and driving all half decent advisers out. The best and brightest minds cannot help if you would not listen to them.

Normally a leader could still reply on the news to notice if they are doing something seriously wrong, but with Trump’s distain for all media except fox (which he only likes because of their shameless brown nosing), and his eagerness to brand any news he doesn’t like fake news, well, it really does look like a perfect storm.

On top of that, Trump now seems to think/been convinced that any negative fallout from his trade war with China is election interference, that makes things even more dicey. As far from taking lessons from a potential mid-terms slump to re-assess if his trade war is a good idea, he may well seek to further escalate as ‘retaliation’ for said ‘election interference’.

In politics and foreign affairs, over-estimating your opponent could be almost as damaging as under-estimating them.

I think one of the primary reasons that China has been so passive thus far in the trade war is because Chinese leaders are really struggling to wrap their heads around the idea that Trump could really be as brash and thoughtless as he seems.

They keep overthinking and are expecting some sort of cunning rouse or ploy, but the other shoe resolutely refuses to drop. And they are reluctant to act pro-actively without first knowing what Trump is playing at in case they are playing right into his (tiny) hands.

I would expect the Chinese to start really testing Trump at some point to see if he really is as clueless as he looks.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
If China buys oil from Iran then it doesn't need US oil. Plus Iranian oil is much higher quality to begin with.
With regards to natural gas, the USA planned to build an entire export infrastructure with the expectation that China would be a major client. IIRC total USA LNG exports to China are about equivalent to like 3% of the natural gas which can be carried with the Power of Siberia pipeline, which is scheduled to become operational in like a year or two, and the Russian piped gas will be a lot cheaper. Already the Russians and Chinese are discussing a second pipeline to duplicate Power of Siberia's capacity along the same route and a Western route pipeline to supplement their piped gas incoming from the Caspian sea states. In the meantime China can just import LNG from Qatar which is the world's largest LNG exporter. Contrary to what I have heard there is a definite untapped demand for natural gas because China needs to clean up the air in its coastal cities. So far natural gas growth has been constrained because the lack of availability in cheap plentiful supply. But piped natural gas changes that equation.

So if there's more oil in the market and there's a retraction in investment because corporations are scared about the conditions in the international market right now, it is fairly certain in the short term both unemployment will rise and oil prices will fall. With regards to stocks, the whole stock market is inflated to high heaven because of all the Federal money printing. The only question about the collapse was not if but when and most people predicted it would happen this year.

I also heard Putin recently say something to the effect that they claim that Russia lives on oil, gas, and weapon sales. He then said IIRC that Russia earned some $14 billion USD in weapon sales last year and $25 billion USD in sales of agricultural produce, like wheat, to places like China. Also it was the first time that Russia surpassed the USA in wheat production since Soviet times. So you can guess why China isn't that concerned with stopping commerce with the USA. Already China can buy soybeans from Argentina and Brazil and even Russia is planning to also get into that market.
Iranian oil and american oil is different. US cracked oil is light sweet, good for making gasolines. A lot of Iranian oil China is importing is mid grade heavy sours, good for diesel and heating fuels. Also much cheaper because of sulfur content. China was buying american crude because there is a lack of demand for light crudes in the US refining market due to excess, so there is a discount to WTI.

As for US LNG industry, the expectation is there will be lots of demand, and global demand is due to China needing it. But LNG is a long term contracts based industry, so if China don't sign, the Americans can strong arm Japan and SK into signing for it and make sure they don't buy from mid east.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Normally you would be right, but no leader could hope to be a expert in every field. Which means the people he/she relies to advise them are key to how well said leader can deal with an area/issue.

In this regard, it is far from a pretty picture wrt the Trump administration, with clowns like Narvaro running the show and driving all half decent advisers out. The best and brightest minds cannot help if you would not listen to them.

Normally a leader could still reply on the news to notice if they are doing something seriously wrong, but with Trump’s distain for all media except fox (which he only likes because of their shameless brown nosing), and his eagerness to brand any news he doesn’t like fake news, well, it really does look like a perfect storm.

On top of that, Trump now seems to think/been convinced that any negative fallout from his trade war with China is election interference, that makes things even more dicey. As far from taking lessons from a potential mid-terms slump to re-assess if his trade war is a good idea, he may well seek to further escalate as ‘retaliation’ for said ‘election interference’.

In politics and foreign affairs, over-estimating your opponent could be almost as damaging as under-estimating them.

I think one of the primary reasons that China has been so passive thus far in the trade war is because Chinese leaders are really struggling to wrap their heads around the idea that Trump could really be as brash and thoughtless as he seems.

They keep overthinking and are expecting some sort of cunning rouse or ploy, but the other shoe resolutely refuses to drop. And they are reluctant to act pro-actively without first knowing what Trump is playing at in case they are playing right into his (tiny) hands.

I would expect the Chinese to start really testing Trump at some point to see if he really is as clueless as he looks.

In the realm of international politics and economics, I agree that there are probably some Chinese leaders who do struggle to understand that Trump is that clueless.

But then you have other Chinese leaders who do understand he really is clueless, but Trump's position as President of the United States does mean that he wields a lot of unilateral power.

So everyone still has to tread carefully to avoid pissing him off unnecessarily.

Plus it is in China's long term interest to maintain an open trade and investment order as much as possible.

So a complete breakdown into a full scale US-China trade war is not in China's interest.
 

love_sick7

Just Hatched
Registered Member
It seems like the US has not had a comprehensive and coherent strategy on how to counter China. Their overall intention is certainly to continue pushing China down like it did to the Soviets, Japan, and the Russians. However US policy has not always been as tough on China as it could have been if this is their desire, exposing a problem with bipartisan style politics.

But assuming Trump Et al. don't know what they're doing or aiming for would be too arrogant. The Americans have shown themselves to be cunning.

Trump’s trade strategy comes into focus, but will it work?
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BY: NEIL IRWIN

Anyone who has been closely watching the Trump administration’s strategy for remaking global trade might have reasonably believed at times that it had no strategy for remaking global trade.

But that has changed in recent weeks, with a more coherent approach starting to become apparent — though not one with any guarantee of success.

The strategy that has gelled goes something like this: The United States president has been beating up on traditional allies, including Canada, Mexico, the European Union, Japan and South Korea.
He has been assailing them publicly, placing tariffs on their steel and aluminum, and threatening to tax their automobiles. But fundamentally, that was just about softening them up to extract moderate concessions favorable to US interests.

That has now been achieved with a trade deal with South Korea in late September and a new North American Free Trade Agreement, now to be called USMCA (for United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement), struck on Sep 30.

Now that the administration has shown it can get to yes with those deals, similarly patterned agreements with Europe and Japan are expected to come next.

After revised deals with those allies are in place, the administration will most likely seek a concerted effort among them to isolate China and compel major changes to Chinese business and trade practices.

The ultimate goal, in other words, is to reset the economic relationship between China and the rest of the world. It may take time and cause pain in the interim.

But the idea is it’s a multistep process to attain more leverage with which to force China to allow US companies to sell their goods and operate freely, without having their technology stolen.

And it bolsters the US in a geopolitical rivalry with China that is becoming more tense, as Vice President Mike Pence articulated in a speech on Oct 4.

One telling piece of evidence for this strategy: a provision in the new North American deal that will make it hard for Mexico or Canada to negotiate a trade deal with a “nonmarket” economy like China without risking their favored access to the United States’ huge market.

Larry Kudlow, the White House economic adviser, outlined this strategy at the Economic Club of Washington on Oct 4. “China is first and foremost,” he said at one point.

“There’s a lot of unfair trading practices, and the biggest culprit is China,” he said. The administration was able to complete the new North American deal, he said, with “a combination of pressure and negotiations.”

“We are talking to the European Union again, we are talking to Japan again, and we are moving to what I have characterised as a trade coalition of the willing to confront China,” Mr Kudlow said.

The sense among analysts that the Trump administration has been pursuing a single coherent strategy contrasts with earlier in the year.

At that point, from the outside at least, the administration seemed to be changing its approach by the week, and sometimes by the day. It has often seemed that there has been a series of improvised moves, with different senior officials favoring different approaches.

Steel and aluminum tariffs were to be applied to all imports, then close allies were exempted, until two months later when they weren’t.

There seemed to be a deal to increase Chinese imports of American agricultural and energy products, achieving trade peace — which crumbled days later, as Mr Trump changed course and demanded more profound changes in the Chinese economy and trade practices.

Now, with the new North American deal, it’s become easier to see how the different elements of Trump trade fit together. The “nonmarket” provision seems devised to give the US veto power over any deal Canada or Mexico might seek with China.

But just because there is a more coherent strategy in the administration’s stance toward global trade than in the recent past doesn’t mean it will work. And there are still plenty of reasons for scepticism.

“I do think we can see a strategy, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good strategy,” said Mary E. Lovely, a professor at Syracuse University and a fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

“They’re going to use these bilateral deals to strong-arm countries into lining up behind the US on China. But when we get there, what’s the next step? I don’t know what the endgame is.”

Some items on the Trump administration’s list of demands in negotiations with the Chinese seem unlikely to be met, as they would compel China to abandon its entire strategy to modernise its economy.

For example, one demand is for China to halt its subsidies for its “Made in China 2025” programme aimed at giving its companies a foothold in aircraft, robotics and other areas of advanced manufacturing.

There’s a risk that even if the effort to isolate China succeeds, the result might be simply a bifurcated world trade system in which there is one orbit of countries with close ties to the US and another tied to China, with minimal overlap.

A crucial question is whether Washington’s strategy of pummeling allies with attacks, threats and tariffs can yield not just revised trade agreements but also the trust needed to undertake a concerted campaign against China.

The new North American deal shares many elements with the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which was negotiated by the Obama administration and abandoned by the Trump administration in early 2017.

The whole agreement was intended as a strategic counterweight to Chinese economic power in the Pacific Rim.

But rather than reopen the TPP, the Trump administration chose the path of separate deals with each country.

The bet is that the US will have greater negotiating leverage in a series of bilateral deals with allies than it would in some large multi-country agreement — even if many of the details of agreements end up looking similar, as was the case with the new USMCA.

The risk of that approach is that when the US hammers out each deal separately, it may be hard to then turn around and create any kind of unified pressure against China.

“To go into battle, together, you need to know that a partner is reliable, that if they tell you something, they’ll stick to it,” said Phil Levy, a senior fellow at the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. “This administration has been anything but reliable on trade policy.”

Still, a few things are apparent now that were not at all clear at the beginning of the summer.

The Trump administration isn’t just looking to blow things up; so long as negotiators can claim victory for US interests, there are deals to be had for allies.

And unpleasant as trade skirmishes with Europe or Canada or Japan may be, they’re really a warmup for a trade war with China. THE NEW YORK TIMES



ABOUT THE AUTHOR:

Neil Irwin is a senior economics correspondent for The New York Times, where he writes for The Upshot, a Times site for analysis of politics, economics and more.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It looks to me that Beijing is being measured on its responses which is a good strategy at this point. Right now the world including US allies see Trump as the villain not China. When Trump runs out of options using trade, that's when things will get interesting. He'll have to go to things that will trigger Beijing to go the next level. I mentioned in earlier posts how China can stop selling rare earths to the US. That's where China will have a lot of leverage. It doesn't matter if other alternate sources are found. It's going to cost them more than ever and it will ripple across key strategic and advanced industries. Trump could just sell more arms to China's enemies and China will sell advanced weapons to the US's enemies. The US is already doing it so only the US will feel the pain of something new. Many people flippantly threaten to sell nukes to China's enemies and they forget China has nukes and could do it right back and that's more frightening to Americans.

Using up all the US's leverage on China over so-called trade disputes is very short-sighted. That's the only thing that prevents China from doing all the other stuff the US is worried China will do. Why not just end trade completely if it's all about trade imbalances? That will balance it out. The fact is it's not enough because it has really nothing to do with trade disputes They want China to restrict itself on developing advanced technology. Advancing in technology is not a crime. You know how you tell? Because they can do it. That's why all the spin. It's important for them to get China to agree to it instead of taking direct efforts themselves showing the world they will punish countries for things they freely can do and is not a crime. They look like the old imperialists that will remind the world they haven't changed. They wrap it around stealing IP so people will accept it because universally stealing is seen as wrong. It's all about preventing China from advancing in technology and selling it to the world. This is what keeps the West in power over everyone else. They control it and therefore get to decide who gets it while making all the money. It's not about fair competition. They don't sell their advance technology to China in the first place so any trade imbalance is their fault. They don't buy Chinese advanced technology. So it's all about controlling who gets that technology because China won't be beholden to US technological restrictions on selling to other countries.
 
now I read
Commentary: Washington's accusing China of "forced technology transfer" not grounded in facts
Xinhua| 2018-10-16 08:07:38
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In its recent round of mud-slinging against China, the United States has once again resorted to such hackneyed charges as "forced technology transfer" and "intellectual property theft."

Those allegations are detached from the facts, insulting to China's technological achievements, and nothing but a pretext for the global hegemon to stymie the ascent of the world's largest developing country.

China's remarkable scientific and technological development allows no belittlement. It stems from the hard work of generation after generation of Chinese researchers, and benefits from international cooperation under the country's long-standing opening-up policy.

China has indeed learnt a great deal from developed countries, but that is just like what the United States did from the 19th century to World War II, when it attracted talents from across the world and acquired advanced technologies from Europe.

Nowadays, the United States outperforms other countries in basic research, while China excels in applied research. That is the reasonable result of the two countries' respective strengths in talents, markets and other resources.

However, in a major speech on Washington's China policy earlier this month, U.S. Vice President Mike Pence recycled the repeatedly disproved claim that China has been forcing foreign companies to transfer technology and stealing intellectual property.

The accusation is so groundless that even sober minds in the United States are not buying it. Larry Summers, a former U.S. Treasury secretary under Bill Clinton and an economic advisor to Barack Obama, said in June that China's technological progress is coming from "terrific entrepreneurs who are getting the benefit of huge government investments in basic science," and "an educational system that's privileging excellence, concentrating on science and technology, ... not from taking a stake in some U.S. company."

In a recent hearing held by the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative regarding proposed tariffs on Chinese products, many U.S. companies testified that they had never been forced to transfer any technology to Chinese entities.

Meanwhile, as witnessed by the international community, China has made great strides in formulating and improving its laws and regulations on intellectual property rights (IPR) protection in recent years.

World Intellectual Property Organization Director General Francis Gurry said just two months ago that in the past 40 years, China has established a high-level IPR protection system that regards intellectual property as the driving force for innovation and economic development and treats Chinese and foreign companies equally.

Without any doubt, technology transfer abounds between Chinese and foreign entities, but that is rooted in the transferring parties' pursuit of maximum profits.

As a matter of fact, U.S. companies have made huge gains in China over recent years from technology transfer and licensing. According to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, China paid 7.95 billion U.S. dollars in 2016 and 8.76 billion dollars in 2017 to the United States for the use of intellectual property.

Thus, such condemnation of normal commercial practices is a mockery of the spirit of contract. More ironically, one of Washington's frequently used weapons to curb other countries' development is to impose high-tech export bans.

Authoritative research reports have repeatedly suggested that should the United States relax its strict restrictions on high-tech exports to China, its trade deficits would decrease significantly. But Washington has continued to be obstinate.

As many have pointed out, the ongoing trade frictions between China and the United States betray Washington's anxiety over China's increasing scientific and technological strength.

That angst is self-inflicted. Beijing is committed to peaceful development and win-win cooperation. What's more, if China and the United States, the top two economies and investors in scientific and technological research on the planet, can join forces, the whole world will benefit, including both countries.

Given that, it is high time that Washington abandon its zero-sum mentality and embark upon the path of win-win cooperation instead.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It looks to me that Beijing is being measured on its responses which is a good strategy at this point. Right now the world including US allies see Trump as the villain not China. When Trump runs out of options using trade, that's when things will get interesting. He'll have to go to things that will trigger Beijing to go the next level. I mentioned in earlier posts how China can stop selling rare earths to the US. That's where China will have a lot of leverage. It doesn't matter if other alternate sources are found. It's going to cost them more than ever and it will ripple across key strategic and advanced industries. Trump could just sell more arms to China's enemies and China will sell advanced weapons to the US's enemies. The US is already doing it so only the US will feel the pain of something new. Many people flippantly threaten to sell nukes to China's enemies and they forget China has nukes and could do it right back and that's more frightening to Americans.

Using up all the US's leverage on China over so-called trade disputes is very short-sighted. That's the only thing that prevents China from doing all the other stuff the US is worried China will do. Why not just end trade completely if it's all about trade imbalances? That will balance it out. The fact is it's not enough because it has really nothing to do with trade disputes They want China to restrict itself on developing advanced technology. Advancing in technology is not a crime. You know how you tell? Because they can do it. That's why all the spin. It's important for them to get China to agree to it instead of taking direct efforts themselves showing the world they will punish countries for things they freely can do and is not a crime. They look like the old imperialists that will remind the world they haven't changed. They wrap it around stealing IP so people will accept it because universally stealing is seen as wrong. It's all about preventing China from advancing in technology and selling it to the world. This is what keeps the West in power over everyone else. They control it and therefore get to decide who gets it while making all the money. It's not about fair competition. They don't sell their advance technology to China in the first place so any trade imbalance is their fault. They don't buy Chinese advanced technology. So it's all about controlling who gets that technology because China won't be beholden to US technological restrictions on selling to other countries.

Don't think it's about technology per se. More to do with wealth. Technology is simply a means to creating and holding onto wealth. If it were purely about tech, western powers would have long ago restricted who gets to learn what and who gets to do what. They could have just bombed all foreign universities and labs. The problem is China getting wealthier and thus getting a greater entitlement to a share to the finite resources in the world. That's all money is, a right to a proportional share of natural and human resources. The US is attempting to cripple the main source of wealth for China.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Don't think it's about technology per se. More to do with wealth. Technology is simply a means to creating and holding onto wealth. If it were purely about tech, western powers would have long ago restricted who gets to learn what and who gets to do what. They could have just bombed all foreign universities and labs. The problem is China getting wealthier and thus getting a greater entitlement to a share to the finite resources in the world. That's all money is, a right to a proportional share of natural and human resources. The US is attempting to cripple the main source of wealth for China.

I don't really think it is about wealth or finite resources.

Fundamentally, I think it's about the USA trying to hold onto its position as number 1 in the world.
 
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