Trade War with China

Status
Not open for further replies.

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
No one mentioning the stock market crashing two days in a row now? And that Treasury Yields are going high? Oil and tech stocks plunging? Everyone freaking out?

If China buys oil from Iran then it doesn't need US oil. Plus Iranian oil is much higher quality to begin with.
With regards to natural gas, the USA planned to build an entire export infrastructure with the expectation that China would be a major client. IIRC total USA LNG exports to China are about equivalent to like 3% of the natural gas which can be carried with the Power of Siberia pipeline, which is scheduled to become operational in like a year or two, and the Russian piped gas will be a lot cheaper. Already the Russians and Chinese are discussing a second pipeline to duplicate Power of Siberia's capacity along the same route and a Western route pipeline to supplement their piped gas incoming from the Caspian sea states. In the meantime China can just import LNG from Qatar which is the world's largest LNG exporter. Contrary to what I have heard there is a definite untapped demand for natural gas because China needs to clean up the air in its coastal cities. So far natural gas growth has been constrained because the lack of availability in cheap plentiful supply. But piped natural gas changes that equation.

So if there's more oil in the market and there's a retraction in investment because corporations are scared about the conditions in the international market right now, it is fairly certain in the short term both unemployment will rise and oil prices will fall. With regards to stocks, the whole stock market is inflated to high heaven because of all the Federal money printing. The only question about the collapse was not if but when and most people predicted it would happen this year.

I also heard Putin recently say something to the effect that they claim that Russia lives on oil, gas, and weapon sales. He then said IIRC that Russia earned some $14 billion USD in weapon sales last year and $25 billion USD in sales of agricultural produce, like wheat, to places like China. Also it was the first time that Russia surpassed the USA in wheat production since Soviet times. So you can guess why China isn't that concerned with stopping commerce with the USA. Already China can buy soybeans from Argentina and Brazil and even Russia is planning to also get into that market.
 
Last edited:

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
So you can guess why China isn't that concerned with stopping commerce with the USA. Already China can buy soybeans from Argentina and Brazil and even Russia is planning to also get into that market.

You right China does not need to buy soybean from midwest while the reverse is not true there is no big buyer of midwest soybean other than China Winter is coming and now they will harvest those soybean where are they going to store it ? Grain elevator only buy cheap soy
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

North Dakota soybean farmers, caught in the trade war, watch the season run out on their crop

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

October 13 at 9:00 AM

Snow was dusting out of the steel-colored sky as Monte Peterson stared out his home office window at the North Dakota land his family has worked since the 1950s.

“We’re having November weather in October,” the 60-year-old sighed.

The words were delivered in a no-nonsense deadpan, but a sense of urgency was working through the fourth-generation farmer. The clock was running. Timelines were collapsing. Each unseasonably wet day was a delay, keeping Peterson and his four-man crew out of the 4,500 acres, representing millions of dollars of soybeans, they need to harvest by Halloween.

But there is another problem facing farmers in the Sheyenne River Valley, 60 miles west of Fargo: They are snagged in the trade crossfire between Washington and Beijing.

For the past decade, North American soybean production has exploded, driven by an intense demand from China. Peterson and other Great Plains farmers directly fed the overseas markets, harvesting more than 243 million bushels in North Dakota, at a price of $2.1 billion in the last market year. The majority of that crop fattened Chinese livestock.

But in July, the Trump administration announced 10 percent tariffs on more than $200 billion of imported Chinese goods. Beijing responded with tariffs on $60 billion of American products — including soybeans.

1:08 Fact-checking Republican ads on single-payer health care | Fact Checker
James Roche, Supreme Court nominee Brett M. Kavanaugh’s freshman-year roommate, accused the judge of lying under oath Oct. 3. (Drea Cornejo /The Washington Post)

The escalation essentially hit pause on what had been a rollicking international market for North Dakota’s farmers. When Peterson pulls his soybeans from the ground, he’ll have no one to sell most of them to.

“What does a farmer do to respond to that when we’re in the middle of a growing season? We can’t just go out and rip up the crop and find something else to sell,” Peterson said. “It’s not like we’re creating widgets here. You can’t just speed up or slow down the production line.”

Nancy Johnson, executive director of the North Dakota Soybean Growers Association, put the number of “orphan soybeans” at 236 million bushels.

The soybean plight has become a flash point in elections in the heavily Republican state, including the battle between Sen. Heidi Heitkamp and GOP challenger Rep. Kevin Cramer. But the situation also has tested Peterson’s — and other farmers’ — support for President Trump, who carried the deep-red state by 36 percentage points.

“He’s the president of the United States and he deserves our support,” Peterson said on a recent morning at his farm. “But I can’t help wondering about the methods he’s using with regards to trade.”

The history of the Peterson family farm tracks with the soybean industry’s rise in North Dakota. When Peterson grew up here, his father had mainly planted hard red spring wheat. Other crops — barley, sunflowers — were mixed in over the years. But soybeans soon began dominating fields across the state.

“The real turning point in the market came in 2000,” when China joined the World Trade Organization, said Johnson, of the Growers Association. “We really saw our acreage start to increase dramatically then.”

The crop’s explosion was driven by the emerging Chinese middle class. Chicken and beef were suddenly in demand and livestock producers fed their animals soybean-based meal. China’s agriculture, however, could not supply enough homegrown soybeans to meet the need.

North Dakota was uniquely positioned geographically to serve China. Soybean producing states to the south, such as Louisiana and Arkansas, ship their crops from ports on the Gulf of Mexico, where they can easily serve South American markets but face a long haul to Asia. North Dakota farmers, however, can get their crops to ports in the Pacific Northwest by rail in four days. From there, the trip across the Pacific to China takes a little over two weeks by boat.

According to Johnson, by 2000, North Dakota farms were producing 60 million bushels of soybeans. Ten years later, the number had jumped to 145 million bushels. In 2014, the level rose to 200 million bushels. As of 2017, two-thirds of the North Dakota soybean crop was going to China.

“We had one country with imports that exceeded the 10 largest other country imports,” Peterson said. “We had all our eggs in one basket with China. It isn’t that we wanted that, or that we didn’t recognize it. But when demand comes that heavy from one area of the world, you try to address it.”

But because the North Dakotan market has been geared specifically for Chinese imports, growers are now left wanting.

The federal government has announced up to $12 billion in relief; the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Market Facilitation Program will pay for half the acreage soybean farmers harvest.

But those payments won’t come until the crop is out of the ground — and the soggy weather soaking North Dakota recently has delayed harvest.

“Lots of guys will be scrambling,” said Joe Ericson, a grower who operates a 5,000-acre farm near Wimbledon. “It’s going to be a struggle. This year might not be as bad because a lot of guys have forward-contracted a lot of this year’s crop already. But if it goes into next year, it could be tough for soybean.”

Peterson has about 25 percent of his crop under contract with a buyer and will store the rest. Many farmers in the region have begun dusting off old bins for storage. Others are hoping to build new storage facilities for the overflow, but steel and aluminum tariffs have driven up construction costs.

“We’re getting hit by both sides of the equation here,” he said.

Peterson said the Chinese were good trading partners. “But were they fair trading partners? That’s another question,” he said.

He had hoped — and still hopes — for action from the Trump administration.

“I am fully supportive of working toward more free and fair trade,” he said. “What I am totally opposed to is the use of tariffs.”

Others echo Peterson’s unease with Trump’s trade tactics.

“It needed to be done but I don’t know it needed to be done in this by, by using agriculture as a tool,” Ericson said. “We’re a red state, so they were voting for him no matter what. But I think that’s changing a little bit. This could effect the Republicans here.”

In the U.S. Senate contest, Cramer has supported the administration’s actions. Heitkamp, who has trailed in recent polls, has criticized her challenger for being out of touch with the state’s agriculture industry.

The farmers themselves are waiting out the international discord, hoping the tariffs are lifted before the new year, when bank loan payments come due. Until then, there are fields to harvest — at least when the weather clears.

Cold temperatures sweeping over the plains, however, have meant more unseasonable snow.

“Now it looks like the middle of January out there,” Peterson said.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I have a friend who just visited her partner's family farm in Iowa. They're hurting but they think it's as simple as China needs to take seriously Trump's complaints. Well Trump is using trade as leverage. It's not the center of the dispute. That's the cover to get people on board the real complaint of the US which is a whole lot of other things that sums up to wanting China restricting itself in advancing technology. If Trump put it that way, it would be seen in a whole different context because basically it's saying the West can advance in technology while China can't. They have nothing to offer China like letting China buy technology that they ban China from buying. They don't stop restrictions on Chinese technology selling in the US. They do lie that China has unrestricted access to the US market. Most of the exports from China to the US are foreign corporations making their products in China so they can exploit cheap labor. So it's actually the opposite where Chinese companies have little access to the US market. All they're doing is threatening China to submit to US demands or they'll target trade. It's extortion plain and simple. What does China gets from Trump's deal? Nothing but trade as usual. Just like it was emphasized in other trade deals, they also want to control what China sells to other countries. And what does China get in exchange? Nothing.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Trump was known for having links to the construction trade unions in New York. Which are (in)famously linked with the Mafia.
So do not be surprised at all to see him act like a mobster. He's had a lot of contact and even friends with those kind of people.

How many times have we seen him make comments about his allies that they better pay up or otherwise they won't be protected? He acts like he's a typical mobster running a protection racket.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have a friend who just visited her partner's family farm in Iowa. They're hurting but they think it's as simple as China needs to take seriously Trump's complaints. Well Trump is using trade as leverage. It's not the center of the dispute. That's the cover to get people on board the real complaint of the US which is a whole lot of other things that sums up to wanting China restricting itself in advancing technology. If Trump put it that way, it would be seen in a whole different context because basically it's saying the West can advance in technology while China can't. They have nothing to offer China like letting China buy technology that they ban China from buying. They don't stop restrictions on Chinese technology selling in the US. They do lie that China has unrestricted access to the US market. Most of the exports from China to the US are foreign corporations making their products in China so they can exploit cheap labor. So it's actually the opposite where Chinese companies have little access to the US market. All they're doing is threatening China to submit to US demands or they'll target trade. It's extortion plain and simple. What does China gets from Trump's deal? Nothing but trade as usual. Just like it was emphasized in other trade deals, they also want to control what China sells to other countries. And what does China get in exchange? Nothing.

This is why China is the one who should stick this trade war out because it really favours China more than the US (despite shaving profits and damaging relations for both). The US do not allow for many Chinese businesses to operate and profit off the American market. All the "cheap junk" they are complaining about are really non-Chinese business products simply made in China. These businesses make profits for the US and are taxed by the US. Meanwhile China allows all sorts of American businesses to profit off the Chinese market, with the only condition being local cooperation. This really can't go any further in the US' favour before they push the Chinese in escalating it further and hurting them even more. So to make up for it, they must shit-talk even louder and get Fox news to present more "evidence" that the Chinese side is hurting because just look at how bad the stock market is performing :p because everyone knows that stock market performance is 100% proportional to tariff consequences and a 100% lean model in predicting a nation's entire economic future. Market uncertainty and general volatility doesn't exist in this narrative. It takes a genuine fool to believe that nonsense.

Trash-talkers are usually compensating for many shortcomings and almost always end up losers.
 
US made up stuff again, about Trump and Xi meeting in late Nov. What's up with that?
did you refer to
Trump and Xi Plan to Meet Amid Trade Tension
Meeting is scheduled to take place at the Group of 20 leaders’ summit in Buenos Aires at the end of November
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

?

With U.S. markets tanking and the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with China intensifying, the White House decided to move ahead with plans for President Trump to meet with Chinese leader Xi Jinping at a multilateral summit in November to see if the two leaders can find a way out of the mess, according to officials in both nations.

The White House has in recent days informed Beijing that it would proceed with the summit meeting, an encounter China has been hoping could provide an opportunity for both sides to ease the escalating trade tensions. The meeting is scheduled to take place at the Group of 20 leaders’ summit in Buenos Aires at the end of November.

Pushing for the meeting on the U.S. side are Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and National Economic Council Director Larry Kudlow. The two men, who have worried about market reaction to the trade fight, have been trying to get negotiations on track for months, with little success. During this time, the U.S. has imposed tariffs on $250 billion of Chinese imports, about half of what China sends to the U.S.

The NEC and Treasury take lead roles in the planning for the G-20 meeting, rather than administration hard-liners on China, most prominently U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer.Mr. Trump has sided with Mr. Lighthizer on tariffs, even when that has torpedoed talks with the Chinese. Carrying through on imposing more tariffs, as President Trump has threatened to do, could derail the summit plans as well.

“I believe it’s always better to talk than not to talk,” said Mr. Kudlow on CNBC on Thursday. “But, thus far their response has been unsatisfactory to our asks.”

In another nod toward easing relations, the U.S. Treasury is expected to find next week that China hasn’t acted as a currency manipulator, say government and industry officials. While the yuan has devalued by about 6.3% since the beginning of the year, Beijing has been fighting to keep the fall from being too precipitous.

Mr. Trump has dedicated a team to plan for his summit meeting with Mr. Xi, the officials said. One of the people involved in the planning is Christopher Nixon Cox, grandson of former President Nixon, whose trip to China in 1972 eventually led to diplomatic relations between the two nations. Mr. Cox, a business consultant who regularly travels to China, is expected to take a senior China role, but hasn’t yet cleared the White House vetting process.

The planning team on the Chinese side includes Liu He, Mr. Xi’s economic envoy.

Chinese and U.S. negotiators in August had sought to map out talks to pave the way for the leaders’ summit, but the recent standoff cast doubt over whether the meeting would still move ahead as originally envisioned. The Chinese leadership
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with Washington late last month after the White House
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Chinese products and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with levies on $60 billion in U.S. goods.

The hard-line faction in the White House, represented by Mr. Lighthizer and trade adviser Peter Navarro, has been trying to use the tariffs as leverage to get China to make fundamental changes in its industrial policies. They worry the U.S. will declare an end to the trade battle too early, eliminating pressure on Beijing.

“The plan is to get Trump in a room with Xi, get a small win and declare an end to the whole thing,” said a U.S. source familiar with the negotiations, who views the talks skeptically.

U.S. business executives, on the other hand, are hoping that a summit could bring some relief from tariffs, which they say hurt their business. In particular, they want Mr. Trump to suspend plans to increase the level of tariffs on the $200 billion in goods to 25%, from 10%, on Jan. 1, as currently planned.

Jacob Parker, vice president of China operations at the U.S.-China Business Council, which represents some 200 American companies that do business with China, said his group has “encouraged senior Chinese officials to share a detailed action plan with their counterparts in the U.S. to lay the groundwork for a successful meeting at the G-20.”

The summit planning represents an effort on both sides to keep a deepening trade dispute from torpedoing the U.S.-China relationship and further shaking global markets. On Wednesday, the U.S. stock market suffered its biggest selloff since February, partly because investors grew more worried about the U.S.-China trade conflict. Chinese shares and the yuan also tumbled on Thursday, as the U.S. selloff continued.

The bilateral ties are also deteriorating in other ways. Military talks between the two nations have halted and both sides have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
for a recent close encounter between their warships in the South China Sea.

Early this week, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with China’s Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Beijing, which risked complicating an anticipated summit meeting between Mr. Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un. That exchange followed a major speech last week in which Vice President Mike Pence outlined a shift in U.S. strategy from engagement to confrontation with China, accusing Beijing of undermining American interests on several fronts, including meddling in U.S. elections. Beijing has vehemently denied those accusations.

The latest exchange of tariffs, which took effect on Sept. 24, is bringing China and the U.S. closer to a full-blown trade war. Mr. Trump has vowed to further ratchet up pressure on China by imposing tariffs on another $257 billion of Chinese products, making all Chinese imports subject to such penalty taxes.

While Chinese officials have repeatedly said they wouldn’t bend to pressure tactics, Beijing is leaving open the possibility of engaging in fresh negotiations with Washington. “President Xi believes there are many reasons to have a stable relationship with the U.S.,” a Chinese official said.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
If China buys oil from Iran then it doesn't need US oil. Plus Iranian oil is much higher quality to begin with.
With regards to natural gas, the USA planned to build an entire export infrastructure with the expectation that China would be a major client. IIRC total USA LNG exports to China are about equivalent to like 3% of the natural gas which can be carried with the Power of Siberia pipeline, which is scheduled to become operational in like a year or two, and the Russian piped gas will be a lot cheaper. Already the Russians and Chinese are discussing a second pipeline to duplicate Power of Siberia's capacity along the same route and a Western route pipeline to supplement their piped gas incoming from the Caspian sea states. In the meantime China can just import LNG from Qatar which is the world's largest LNG exporter. Contrary to what I have heard there is a definite untapped demand for natural gas because China needs to clean up the air in its coastal cities. So far natural gas growth has been constrained because the lack of availability in cheap plentiful supply. But piped natural gas changes that equation.

Yes, and the natural gas have deeper economics advantages as well.

It contain high level of hydrogen, means abandoned supply of NG gives the option to the refineries to make more light petrol/diesel from bitumen/paraffin, for the chemical factories to swap dramatically decrease the amount of required energy / transport requirements by swapping the hydrogen generation from gasification to less equipment and energy extensive natural gas hydrogen generation.

So, it would allow to China to increase dramatically the capacity/efficiency of the petroleum/chemical industry.

And the natural gas more flexible, easy and cheap to change from electricity generation to heating to chemical production.
 
this is interesting:
Chinese ambassador to US says Beijing doesn't know who to deal with

Updated 1:00 AM ET, Mon October 15, 2018
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Chinese ambassador to the United States said diplomats are confused over who is the "final decision maker" in the Trump administration, complicating future negotiations amid the escalating US China trade war.
When asked by Fox News host Chris Wallace who Ambassador Cui Tiankai believed in the Trump administration was running trade policy with China, the ambassador replied, "You tell me."
"(Diplomats) don't know who is the final decision maker. Of course, presumably the president would take the final decision, but who is playing what role? Sometimes it could be very confusing," Cui said in the interview.
The interview comes as relations between Beijing and Washington plumbed new lows, following allegations of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

In an interview with Fox News Sunday, Cui said
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that Beijing was attempting to sway the 2018 US midterm elections were "groundless."
"One of the fundamental principles in China's foreign policy is no interference in the internal affairs of other countries. And we have been consistent in this position," Cui said in the interview.
Chinese officials in Beijing have been growing increasingly concerned by the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
which analysts say has caught the Chinese Communist Party off guard.
Trump is expected to meet with Chinese President Xi Jinping in Buenos Aires in November for one-on-one talks to broker a solution to the growing diplomatic crisis.

US arching its back
The US President's stern language on Beijing has been picked up by a number of other high-profile US officials in the past week, leading experts to question whether this is the beginning of an administration-wide push back against the Chinese government.
In a fiery speech in Washington last week, US Vice President Mike Pence doubled down on Trump's accusations of electoral inference by Beijing.
"As we speak, Beijing is employing a whole-of-government approach, using political, economic, and military tools, as well as propaganda, to advance its influence and benefit its interests in the United States," Pence said in his speech.
Responding to allegations of Chinese state media placing propaganda in US media, Cui said China was "just learning from American media."
"This is normal practice for all media," he said.
Days after Pence's speech, FBI Director Christopher Wray said China posed a greater danger to the United States than Russia.
"China in many ways represents the broadest, most complicated, most long-term counterintelligence threat we face," he said
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Orville Schell, director at the New York-based Asia Society's Center on US-China relations, told CNN relations between the two countries were at a "dramatic inflection point."
"I think we'll see more of this ... the US really arching its back in response to what it considers an unreciprocal relationship on an unlevel playing field, not just with the economy, but with the media, with civil society, military, business and investment," Schell said.

Confused China
Cui's interview displays the growing frustration and concern by Chinese officials as they attempt to calm diplomatic relations with Washington and the Trump administration.
"We don't want a trade war with any other country including the US ... (Look) how much benefit American consumers have got over the years, and how much money American companies have made from the operation in China," he said.
Days before imposing tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese goods, Trump threatened to slap further measures on another $267 billion in goods
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

One line often heard from Chinese officials about the US President is: "What does he really want?"
China isn't the first country to be left in the dark by the unpredictable Trump administration's diplomatic policy. In 2017, at the high of tensions between Washington and Pyongyang,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to try and understand the US President's tactics.
When asked about frosty talks with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in Beijing last week, Cui said the talks had been "very timely" and stressed the importance of high level communication.
"(But) I think it's a legitimate right of every country to defend its national interests and China is no exception," he said.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top