Trade War with China

manqiangrexue said:

Because China needs the funds to build the largest and most powerful military in the world.

All relationships between countries and men are man-made and thus can be altered by man. Maybe in your culture, people can accept being inferior or subordinate to another race/nation as a "natural" thing. That culture has nothing to do with the Chinese.

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I repeat it with other words:
IF you don't want to accept that one group of people ( USA) more wealthy and control another group of people ( China) then why you accept that one group of people in (billionaires in China) control another group of people ( everyone else who is not billionaire ) ?

Or the master with the whip is more acceptable if speak Chinese, and his / her ancestors are Chinese ? And the problem of the USA masters is they language and ancestry ?

And yes, the billionaires in chine = with the politician class. They are wealthy because connected and close to the fire.
And the current wealth gap is generated by them, and the "rebalancing to consumption" means that Xi has to conquer the whole politician and economical elite of China, with less blood than during the french/russian/usa ect. "rebalancing" .

AndrewS said:

I've seen a number of responses to this question, but in a nutshell.

I don't see any issue with being a self-made billionaire, if they have earned that money by their own abilities.

On the other hand, if someone inherits or is given very large amounts of money, they are most likely NOT creating jobs through their own entrepreneurial efforts.

And inequality is actually an issue. The studies show that unequal societies are less happy, less healthy and more crime ridden.

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China in the 1960's was very equal: everybody was poor. Is that better than China in the 2000's? Is it actually inequality that's the issue?

Equality simply means a lack of opportunity to improve one self. That means stasis. Inequality is the basis of human motivation and the engine of progress, but only if people are free to pursue opportunities for advancement. It is the unequal society that limits advancement opportunities that is the basis of the social ills we speak of so often.

Anlsvrthng said:

I repeat it with other words:
IF you don't want to accept that one group of people ( USA) more wealthy and control another group of people ( China) then why you accept that one group of people in (billionaires in China) control another group of people ( everyone else who is not billionaire ) ?

Or the master with the whip is more acceptable if speak Chinese, and his / her ancestors are Chinese ? And the problem of the USA masters is they language and ancestry ?

And yes, the billionaires in chine = with the politician class. They are wealthy because connected and close to the fire.
And the current wealth gap is generated by them, and the "rebalancing to consumption" means that Xi has to conquer the whole politician and economical elite of China, with less blood than during the french/russian/usa ect. "rebalancing" .

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The difference is that while Chinese billionaires have wealth, they do not get to make the laws of the land and cannot threaten the security of the people. A dominant US, on the other hand, does threaten the security of the Chinese people.

No, Chinese billionaires are not the political class. You obviously don't even know what the political class is in China.

Anlsvrthng said:

I repeat it with other words:
IF you don't want to accept that one group of people ( USA) more wealthy and control another group of people ( China) then why you accept that one group of people in (billionaires in China) control another group of people ( everyone else who is not billionaire ) ?

Or the master with the whip is more acceptable if speak Chinese, and his / her ancestors are Chinese ? And the problem of the USA masters is they language and ancestry ?

And yes, the billionaires in chine = with the politician class. They are wealthy because connected and close to the fire.
And the current wealth gap is generated by them, and the "rebalancing to consumption" means that Xi has to conquer the whole politician and economical elite of China, with less blood than during the french/russian/usa ect. "rebalancing" .

Click to expand...

I think you lack knowledge about Chinese entrepreneurship. I can tell you that Capitalist is in the DNA of every Chinese we celebrate independence and striking it on our own There is saying it is better to own your business even if it small rather than work for other people
It is not correct to say Chinese billionaire is the result of crony capitalism Man like Alibaba chairman Jack Ma start from the bottom Latter on they might join the communist party in order to safeguard their business adn be on the good side of the government But not to use the government
They in return empowered million of people to strike on their own and buy and sell on the platform that they created
Alibaba’s Success Stems from Unleashing the Forces of Grassroots Entrepreneurship




Excerpt from

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by Dr. Ying Lowrey.

Alibaba’’s great innovation was to base its own growth and development on the unleashed entrepreneurship of grassroots enterprises.

Previously in China, an individual’s creativity, capabilities, and ambitions were inhibited by social institutions that did not guarantee the rights of free enterprise and by a government that did not protect individuals’ creative ability to start companies. When we now champion grassroots entrepreneurship, we include not only individuals among the public at large but also primary-level communities and primary-level government organizations.

By adhering to the concept of customer first and the motto, “Make it easy to do business anywhere,” Alibaba has used the dynamism that has been gestating within the public at large to create one astonishing feat after another.

The company set its sights on being in business for 102 years and being “China’s greatest and most unusual major company to span three centuries.”

To achieve this, it had to institute a sustained and routinized form of Innovation.20 The value concept of customer first is not built on the basis of altruism. Instead, it is determined by the ecosystem needs of the platform economy of e-commerce in the digital age.

This value concept and its positioning require unusual comprehension and long-term vision. The concept of customer first enabled Alibaba to build a platform based on the digital age. Highly effective hardware and software enabled it to develop a massive customer base, both of which then enabled Alibaba to employ the scale effect of technological innovations. All this counted toward what the company did itself and so was only one side of the story. On the other side, Alibaba bestowed enormous capabilities on grassroots entrepreneurs, which allowed them to unleash their own entrepreneurship. In this process, Alibaba and millions of small companies formed a digital-age mutual interdependency that allowed the “stars and the moon” to reflect light off one another.

There are 7 million extremely active merchants on Alibaba. Not only have they created their own business turf, from which a large number of outstanding enterprises have emerged, but in the process they have catapulted the growth of Alibaba.

Jack Ma is the chairman of the board of the Alibaba Group. In 2009, on the tenth anniversary of the company’’s founding, he described the secret of the company’s success: “We have been willing to do what others were not willing to do but also what they could not do. Over this past decade, we have written our script solely for micro and small enterprises, that is, for the ‘forsaken daughters’ that no-one else wanted.”

Orders and cash flow are the lifelines of companies. Through Alibaba’’s e-commerce platform, by participating in the formation of a sturdy supply chain, micro and small enterprises have discovered a way to exist and to grow in a manner that represents a completely new path. By now, the Alibaba Group has entered the ranks of global Internet giants. The real power behind it, however, lies in the tens of millions of astonishingly dynamic small Chinese companies. Alibaba’’s mission is to create a situation that “makes it easy to do business anywhere.”

Before making any decision, Alibaba first takes into consideration how any action may contribute to increasing benefits to its customers, by allowing them to make more money, save on costs, or manage employees better.

Dr. Ying Lowrey is an Economics Professor at the School of Social Sciences Tsinghua University and Deputy Director of Tsinghua Research Center for Chinese Entrepreneurs. Previously she was senior economist at the US Small Business Administration and professor of economics at several US universities.

Anlsvrthng said:

I repeat it with other words:
IF you don't want to accept that one group of people ( USA) more wealthy and control another group of people ( China) then why you accept that one group of people in (billionaires in China) control another group of people ( everyone else who is not billionaire ) ?

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Because we are one country. There is no "wealthy people" military and "poor people" military. When China makes achievements, wealthy and poor Chinese people all cheer for the same flag. When wealthy Chinese people make contributions to make China stronger, poor Chinese people enjoy that benefit just the same. Poor Chinese people can work hard to become rich Chinese people; rich Chinese people can make mistakes and become poor Chinese people; in essence, we are still the same, just Chinese people. But Chinese people and Americans/Europeans/Africans/Latinos are different completely.

Anlsvrthng said:

Or the master with the whip is more acceptable if speak Chinese, and his / her ancestors are Chinese ? And the problem of the USA masters is they language and ancestry ?

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Yes, family different from outsider. If my brother hits my car, I won't ask him to pay. If my mother is cooking and burns down my house, I don't ask her to pay. But if same thing happens with a stranger, he must pay every cent of damage. When Chinese people get rich, their money is paid as tax to the Chinese government and the Chinese government uses it to make a military to protect my future and the future of my children. When Americans get rich, their profit becomes taxes paid to the US government for creating a military with which to wreak havoc all across Asia and threaten the security/prosperity of myself and my children. That is the difference.

Jura said:

LOL the Chinese connection here?

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None,just for a reference to china, you pop-up spam.Got problem?

solarz said:

Ummm, no. According tot he OECD, Mexico has the longest working hours at 2250 hours per year per worker. The US only has 1789 hours, just slightly above the OECD average of 1763. That average is certainly boosted by the presence of immigrants (both legal and illegal) who are not eligible for welfare.

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The only thing unique about American violence is the high prevalence of gun crime in a developed nation. China is not even remotely comparable. I don't know where you get the gall to post such blatantly false assertions. Do you even have the faintest idea what China is like??

Even more laughable is the attempt to differentiate Breivik's attack with American mass shootings.

The US doesn't control guns because they have a gun culture, not because of capitalism. There are plenty of capitalist countries that have strict gun control.

Finally, you discount what Alibaba has achieved in China, and continue with your dogmatic view that wealth comes from screwing people. That alone discredits your argument about billionaires.

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You keep ragging on welfare but if that really were the case that dependence on welfare leads to durg use we would see drug epidemics be a larger problem in western European countries. They have far more comprehensive welfare systems than in america. Last I checked it was americans experiencing a decline in life expectancy due to drug deaths hitting middle aged people not europeons.
US gun culture is a cynical manufactured advertising campaign that appeals to people using myths from the era when americans was colonizing the continent, I would hesitate to call it culture any more than I would call 11/11 Chinese culture. Breivik was clearly a case of political violence (terrorism if you want to use that word) not an attack without political goal as american mass shootings are. You would not say that ISIS conducts mass shootings in Syria, nor would you say american mass shootings are like ISIS military operations. You keep defending this one capitalist as if that somehow exonerates the entire capitalist class (Engles was a capitalist btw). Look at what capitalists are doing in Venezuela, they openly collaborate with a hostile power against the state. Look at the oligarchs during the Yeltsin period doing their best to funnel their wealth out of Russia. And ask yourself who decided to move manufacturing to China from america? It wasn't the american working class, it was american capitalists. Are those examples of positive-sum social relations or are those examples of screwing the working class for profit? In a competitive market economy, a successful enterprise must be profitable, but more importantly must grow and ideally grow faster than competitors so it can stay alive. Profit and growth are imperative, the behavior of the capitalist class naturally follows from the rules of play in a market economy. The absence of profit and growth in capitalism is crisis. In this thread I see China supporters post evidence of increases in production/consumption as a sign of the strength of China's economy and the China haters post the opposite news as a sign of weakness so don't tell me that growth and profit are not the goals of capitalism. But do tell me how China (or any capitalist economy) plans on growing forever on a finite planet. China has the good fortune of being run by a Marxist-Leninist party and the CPC should be aware of all these issues. It remains to be seen if they will take real steps to adjust to an economy that serves human needs rather than one driven by profit motive.

canniBUS said:

You keep ragging on welfare but if that really were the case that dependence on welfare leads to durg use we would see drug epidemics be a larger problem in western European countries. They have far more comprehensive welfare systems than in america. Last I checked it was americans experiencing a decline in life expectancy due to drug deaths hitting middle aged people not europeons.
US gun culture is a cynical manufactured advertising campaign that appeals to people using myths from the era when americans was colonizing the continent, I would hesitate to call it culture any more than I would call 11/11 Chinese culture. Breivik was clearly a case of political violence (terrorism if you want to use that word) not an attack without political goal as american mass shootings are. You would not say that ISIS conducts mass shootings in Syria, nor would you say american mass shootings are like ISIS military operations. You keep defending this one capitalist as if that somehow exonerates the entire capitalist class (Engles was a capitalist btw). Look at what capitalists are doing in Venezuela, they openly collaborate with a hostile power against the state. Look at the oligarchs during the Yeltsin period doing their best to funnel their wealth out of Russia. And ask yourself who decided to move manufacturing to China from america? It wasn't the american working class, it was american capitalists. Are those examples of positive-sum social relations or are those examples of screwing the working class for profit? In a competitive market economy, a successful enterprise must be profitable, but more importantly must grow and ideally grow faster than competitors so it can stay alive. Profit and growth are imperative, the behavior of the capitalist class naturally follows from the rules of play in a market economy. The absence of profit and growth in capitalism is crisis. In this thread I see China supporters post evidence of increases in production/consumption as a sign of the strength of China's economy and the China haters post the opposite news as a sign of weakness so don't tell me that growth and profit are not the goals of capitalism. But do tell me how China (or any capitalist economy) plans on growing forever on a finite planet. China has the good fortune of being run by a Marxist-Leninist party and the CPC should be aware of all these issues. It remains to be seen if they will take real steps to adjust to an economy that serves human needs rather than one driven by profit motive.

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Man, can you please use some paragraphs? It's very difficult trying to decipher your meaning among that wall of text.

First, you can no more compare the US with small European countries as you can compare China with Japan. A large country is qualitatively different from a small country. For example, people feel more alienated in cities than in small towns. Small countries only have a handful of cities which tend to be well funded in terms of infrastructure and has plenty of job opportunities. Large countries have a lot of cities, and while some of them are highly developed, there are also a number of cities which struggle with crumbling infrastructure and poor management. The socio-economic dynamics are completely different.

Second, if you think the American love of guns is just a result of advertising, then you obviously haven't spent much time listening to the pro-gun camp. Americans believe, with the same fervor that they believe in the Christian God, that their freedom can only be defended through their right to bear arms. When it comes down to it, Americans prefer to endure mass shootings rather than give up their guns. If that's not cultural, I don't know what is.

Finally, Jack Ma is not unique among Chinese billionaires, just one of the more flamboyant ones. I don't care what billionaires in other countries do, I'm just here to tell you that Chinese billionaires, for the most part, are productive and valued members of society.

solarz said:

Finally, Jack Ma is not unique among Chinese billionaires, just one of the more flamboyant ones. I don't care what billionaires in other countries do, I'm just here to tell you that Chinese billionaires, for the most part, are productive and valued members of society.

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You absolutely can compare Europe and US and you can see what a world of difference a strong worker's movement vs. a neutered worker's movement makes. I don't think it's an issue of cities and villages since you have both Detroit and West Virginia as examples. You would have to go to some places in Africa to find places that bad. Size is also challenge, but not an insurmountable one. USSR and China in the past had policies that promoted more even development.
Anyways, your final point is the most misguided and harmful. You cannot ignore what capitalists in other countries do and say that Chinese are different. You would have to assume we are somehow superior to other peoples and will not succumb to the same vices when playing by the rules of capital. History has not shown that, look at the ROC before 1949 or health and safety scandals we see now in China. And if we look across the pond to the remnants that call themselves ROC, the same issues have occurred. The people buying their way out of the country are not interested in the success and strengthening of the Chinese state. They'll play whatever role they need to now and stab you in the back later. Don't idolize capitalists, doesn't matter what race they are, lest you become one of their tools to use against China.

2handedswordsman said:

None,just for a reference to china, you pop-up spam.Got problem?

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it looks like what you've described as

2handedswordsman said:

A good thing happened btw, workers of COSCO at Piraeus port went on strike for several days and won a raise and better working insurance

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#1757 2handedswordsman, Yesterday at 8:38 PM

ended
Piraeus port reported back to normal after strike action
on: June 04, 2018

A Greek court has ruled that strike action at Piraeus port was illegal and the action has ended. The strike action started last Wednesday with some workers claiming that COSCO was not meeting its obligation to the labour force.

The labour action had effected the operations of China’s COSCO Shipping Ports Limited which operates Piraeus Container Terminal SA, and their workers have been unable to get to work.

The Chinese authorities complained to the Greek government regarding the action.

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