The Sino-Japanese Naval War of 2012

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ChinaGuy

Banned Idiot
None of the points you listed gives a reason for why there would be a battle. This is all just in your imagination.

The battle starts when a crazed Japanese politician drives an oil rig to Diaoyu and starts drilling for oil. Then a Chinese fisheries patrol ship rams the rig, toppling it. A watching Japanese coastguard ship then opens fire on the Chinese ship destroying the bridge killing the senior officers on board. A Chinese 054A frigate arriving at the scene then rams the Japanese ship to prevent it from sinking the damaged fisheries ship. A fast approaching Japanese frigate then opens fires on the 054A at range. The 054A responds with cannon fire and damaging the rudder of the Japanese ship and causing it to take on water. By now a Japanese patrol plane is overhead buzzing the Chinese frigate and dispensing flares as a protective measure against the AA missiles. Undetected by the 054A, a Japanese submarine launches a torpedo that scores a direct hit and igniting the the 054A's VLS casing massive damage. A squadron of PLAN's flankers then arrives catching the Japanese sub on the surface. Anti-ship missiles are launched from two of the flankers at the sub, immediately sinking it. As you can imagine, war is a foregone conclusion by that stage.
 
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cn_habs

Junior Member
The battle starts when a crazed Japanese politician drives an oil rig to Diaoyu and starts drilling for oil. Then a Chinese fisheries patrol ship rams the rig, toppling it. A watching Japanese coastguard ship then opens fire on the Chinese ship destroying the bridge killing the senior officers on board. A Chinese 054A frigate arriving at the scene then rams the Japanese ship to prevent it from sinking the damaged fisheries ship. A fast approaching Japanese frigate then opens fires on the 054A at range. The 054A responds with cannon fire and damaging the rudder of the Japanese ship and causing it to take on water. By now a Japanese patrol plane is overhead buzzing the Chinese frigate and dispensing flares as a protective measure against the AA missiles. Undetected by the 054A, a Japanese submarine launches a torpedo that scores a direct hit and igniting the the 054A's VLS casing a massive damage. A squadron of PLAN's flankers then arrives catching the Japanese sub on the surface. Anti-ship missiles are then launched from two of the flankers at the sub, immediately sinking it. As you can imagine, war is a foregone conclusion by that stage.

Nice novel there ;)
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Reply in blue

Here are my reasons for the comparison. Feel free to rebut or comment as necessary:

1- The remoteness of the potential battlefield in a Japan - China clash in many ways resembles the remoteness of the South Atlantic and the situation both Britain and Argentina faced in applying forces to the Falklands

Not so, Diaoyu is close to Taiwan and Okinawa and not a far reach from bases in eastern china. Japan would be sustaining the air superiroty using ground based airpower where RN had to rely on destroyer screens and Harrier Carriers.

2-A clash in the air between the JSDF and the PLAN would be between beyond visual range aircraft and might not involve much close in dog fighting

While generally true but Not entierly so as crowed airspace in eastern china sea may necessitates V-ID rules of engagement.

3-The Japanese might establish an exclusion zone around the islands warning the Chinese not to violate Japanese waters and airspace You will recall the British did the same thing around the Falklands and used the HMS Conqueror to sink the light cruiser Belgrano as it attempted to violate the EZ.

The chinese could move out with its 052C and does the samething around the Diaoyu Island forcing JN to react.

4-The JMSDF is a professional organization and their submarine forces are considered one of the best in the world. Sinking a PLAN ship would be a very provocative act but would not be outside of the ideas of war at sea in the event of a crisis

So would PLAN sink a JMSDF ship. its not likechinese anti shipping missiles are un proven weapons.

5-It is unlikely that the crisis would escalate into a nuclear confrontation because the PLAN would be seen as weak if they had to go nuclear in response to an attack on one of their ships. Remember the British lost many ships and still kept the Falkland war contained as a conventional war. The Chinese would be under pressure to do the same

No first use policy on chinese nukes. thats written as a official policy, barking up the wrong trees there for so many reasons.

6-Like the Falklands you have one side with nuclear weapons and one without. That would be a nuclear armed Britain and a non-nuclear Argentina

see number 5.

7-Like the Falklands the United States would be supplying one side, Japan. In the Falklands war the U.S. provided the British with military equipment ranging from submarine detectors to the latest missiles. You could expect the same behind the scenes help for Japan.

US involvement is much more intimate with Japanese then with british at falkland,.. those JMSDF airplanes and ships would be based rigth along side USN and AF ships and airplanes. If hypothetically US wanted no part in the conflict, it would have to emphatically to remove itself.(i.e. a rapid withdraw from japanese bases) or else it would be dragged into the conflict the moment a missile fell onto a US-Japanese base.

8-Like Argentina the Chinese have a nascent maritime ocean surveillance system and and would be hard pressed to locate and hold track on the JMSDF

china has a fairly robust ocean optical and active radar and elint space based suravllence network, it has the launch capacity to augmented its space network in a emergency fairly quickly. Did argentina has that capability?

9-Like Argentina the PLAN has a poorly developed ASW force and would be at a disadvantage combating Japanese submarines

PLAN has ten times the submarine force vs Argentina. some very modern Kilos and 039 040s operating plus nuclear attack subs. does argentina have nearly the same Submarine forces?

10-Japanese E-767 AWACS and KC-767 tanker aircraft would put the PLAN forces at a disadvantage.


vs KJ-200 and KJ-2000?
 

joshuatree

Captain
Everyone seems to be all in if Diaoyu becomes a flashpoint. Just make it easier for China, should something of such magnitude happen, simply end all economic trade with Japan and seizes all assets within China belonging to Japanese companies. Prohibit any cargo ship Japan bound within EEZ. That's plenty enough to cause mayhem to Japan and even the world's economy. No need to fire any shot, remember Sun Tzu. ;)
 

solarz

Brigadier
Everyone seems to be all in if Diaoyu becomes a flashpoint. Just make it easier for China, should something of such magnitude happen, simply end all economic trade with Japan and seizes all assets within China belonging to Japanese companies. Prohibit any cargo ship Japan bound within EEZ. That's plenty enough to cause mayhem to Japan and even the world's economy. No need to fire any shot, remember Sun Tzu. ;)

Bah, why do you speak of reality when some forumites are busy dreaming up the next Clancy novel?
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
Once NikeX is on everyone's ignore list he will stop trolling and derailing every single thread. :eek:
 

ChinaGuy

Banned Idiot
According to the latest CCTV-7's analysis, the present trilateral relationship amongst China, Russia, and US makes a Diaoyu war improbable. Seems to me, Japan is not really a part of the equation.

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In4ser

Junior Member
Well
they made two big ones in WW2
invading china and Attacking America
by invading china they invaded a country they can never conquer and absorb.
by attacking america they took on the biggest industrialized nation on earth in a industrialized war.

I don't think it was Japan's intention during the start of hostilities to absorb China directly into their empire. Rather it was to protect and extend the borders of Manchukuo over the rest of China and reinstall Qing rule (as a resource appendage and puppet state).

I also have heard it was rivalry between IJN and IJA that caused U.S. to enter the war. Supposedly the insubordination of the IJN attacked Pearl harbor without prior approval to divert attention and garner resources away from the Imperial Army. I forget where i got the facts though.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
I don't think it was Japan's intention during the start of hostilities to absorb China directly into their empire. Rather it was to protect and extend the borders of Manchukuo over the rest of China and reinstall Qing rule (as a resource appendage and puppet state).

I also have heard it was rivalry between IJN and IJA that caused U.S. to enter the war. Supposedly the insubordination of the IJN attacked Pearl harbor without prior approval to divert attention and garner resources away from the Imperial Army. I forget where i got the facts though.

mmmhmmmmm I am not sure if Japan wanted to conquer China... but: Tanaka Memorial:

"". .. in order to conquer the world we [Japan] must first conquer China. But in order to conquer China we must first conquer Manchuria and Mongolia. If' we succeed in conquering China, the rest of the Asiatic countries and the South Sea countries will fear us and surrender to us. Then the world will realize that Eastern Asia is ours and will not dare to violate our rights. This is the plan left to us by Emperor Meiji, the success of which is essential to our national existence" ( Tanaka Giichi And Japan's China Policy, by William Fitch Morton, 1980, p. 205)."

Wether the japnese high command heeded the tanaka memorial, all we can say is that there are factions in Japan which wanted to conquer the world and thus china.
 

z117

New Member
It's not just a simple game of battleships I'm afraid. America's involvement will not go unnoticed.

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The Center of Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) is a think-tank comprised of high-ranking former US policymakers. Its recommendations are highly influential, having been used in the past as part of the basis of US government policy. Their report, entitled, "The US-Japan Alliance: Anchoring Stability in Asia", co-authored by former deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage, called for Japan to take a much more proactive role in Asia.

The paper encouraged a loosening of Japan's constitutional prohibition on "collective self-defense", and pointed out the "irony" of the US-imposed Japanese constitution preventing Japan from taking a more militarily assertive role alongside the US in Asia. More specifically, the report called for Japan to increase surveillance capabilities in the disputed South China Sea and prepare to send minesweepers to the Persian Gulf. [1]

The main motivation for the US to push for a more active Japanese security role in the region is to counter China's rise. The CSIS report did make mention of North Korea, but the "challenges" posed by China's increasing clout were a central theme of the paper. As the US pivots towards Asia, Japan is seen as a strong and indispensable ally.

However, enhancing the projection of US power into Asia with an increasingly militarized Japanese alliance poses serious risks. Foremost, the tragic history of Japanese imperialism and ongoing disputes over the portrayal of Japan's imperial war crimes in the Japanese education system and political arena cause incredible friction between Japan and America's other East Asian allies.

The CSIS report on US-Japan relations specifically called for a tripartite alliance between the US, Japan, and South Korea aimed at containing North Korea and limiting China's ambitions:

"Washington, Tokyo, and Seoul should pool their diplomatic capital to jointly deter North Korean pursuit of nuclear weapons and help shape a regional environment best suited to respond to China's rise". [2]

In order to accomplish this end, the CSIS encouraged the Japanese government "to confront the historical issues that continue to complicate relations" with South Korea.

Herein lies the fundamental flaw in America's reliance on an assertive Japan for America's strategic pivot towards Asia. The Japanese nationalists who would be eager to assume a proactive regional stance are the very same political actors who are loath to face the unpleasant facts of Japan's colonial history (much less apologize for them).

Additionally, any moves to promote an active stance by Japan's military will cause a nationalist backlash in countries throughout the region. In East Asia, historical nationalism can trump geopolitics, and the wounds of the past run deep.

As concerned as South Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines may be by China's new assertiveness, these countries by no means would openly welcome a forceful Japanese stance in the region. The ongoing stand-off between South Korea and Japan over the Liancourt Rocks puts the United States in the awkward position of having its two most important regional allies face off against each other.

Open American backing for Tokyo to expand its military role in the region could completely alienate the younger generation South Korean nationalists, many of whom already bristle at the ongoing US military presence in the Korean Peninsula.

The US simply can't reliably be a strategic partner to the people and governments of South Korea, the Philippines, and Vietnam while pushing for what will be seen as Japanese neo-militarism. The Chinese government will be sure to take advantage of regional anti-Japanese sentiment in the event of an American-backed Japanese projection of power.

Furthermore, no single issue can inspire Chinese nationalism like perceived Japanese aggression. The landing of several Chinese activists on the disputed Senkaku (Diaoyu) Islands last week caused a stir of emotions in China. The protestors received a hero's welcome in Hong Kong after they were arrested and deported by the Japanese government.

Even more tellingly, after Japanese activists reached the disputed islands on Sunday, spontaneous and emotional protests erupted in several major Chinese cities within hours. Anger was vented against Japanese automobiles, restaurants, and retail outlets. Protestors in Shanghai denounced "Japanese imperialism". [3]

Nothing could inspire a lasting sense of distrust, anger, and anti-American sentiment in China faster than US backing for a more assertive Japan.

Finally, US pressure to increase Japan's overseas ambitions may cause sharp divisions in Japan itself. Fissures between pacifists and nationalists are emerging from Japan's ongoing economic and political deadlock. Tokyo's nationalist Mayor Shintaro Ishihara, who touched off the current round of the East China Sea dispute with an offer in April to "buy" the disputed islands, condemned the Japanese government for releasing the Chinese maritime activists, saying "It is a distinct criminal case ... We can't call Japan a real law-governed country if it sends them back as mere illegal aliens." [4]

At the same time, reports are emerging that Japan's ambassador to China, who warned of a "grave crisis" between the two nations over the dispute, is to be replaced because of government anger over his conciliatory line.

The CSIS's warnings of a "time of drift" in US-Japan relations is indicative of the major shifts in regional power. South Korea and Japan may be strategically wary of China's rise, but the major political forces in these two nations are by no means eager to jump into a united anti-China bandwagon.

South Korean President Lee must have been well aware of Japan's deepening maritime dispute with China when he purposefully upped tensions with Japan himself by visiting the Dokdo Islands. For the time being, there is a de facto joint South Korean - Chinese effort to put pressure on Japan's territorial claims.

Additionally, both South Korea and Japan have a deeper trade relationship with China than either country does with the United States. It is perhaps largely for this reason that the CSIS warns of a "drift" between the US and Japan - while the US seeks to deputize the Japanese government into keeping China is check, Japan is tugged by economic realities beyond any government's control into China's orbit.

A final lesson to take away from the ongoing maritime disputes between Japan and her neighbors is that a more democratic China will in all likelihood be a more aggressive China. It is important to note that the protest boat sent to "defend the Diaoyu Islands" was sent from Hong Kong, not mainland China. If political reform in the Middle Kingdom eventually leads to China becoming more democratic, then Chinese politicians will need to be quickly responsive to populist, nationalist voices.

China's current leadership can play the long game and wait for China's economic situation to continue improving. However, the temptation to project China's increasing power may prove too great for a democratic government to resist if a crisis emerged.

The democratically elected leaders of Japan and South Korea currently engage in nationalist posturing in order to get votes, and neither of these countries has the manpower, money, and worldwide ambitions of the world's most populous country.

What is more, nationalist political maneuvers are usually based on old historical animosities. The West and concerned regional powers should take careful note: if and when China's political system becomes more democratic, expect it to be even more regionally assertive.
 
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