The reason for India to go from 5.56 to 7.62x39?

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by ohan_qwe, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. gelgoog
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    gelgoog Senior Member
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    I think the choice was a combination of a couple of reasons. They likely chose the round because of similar experiences to Afghanistan where the 5.56mm rounds proved incapable of use in a lot of combat situations. Not enough stopping power. Nor enough range. The intermediate Soviet round of the AK-47 solves the stopping power issue. The bullet is larger. As for the weapon proper it was likely a matter of who could setup a factory which could produce millions of rifles on the cheap. Israeli weapons like the Galil ACE might be nice and all but the Israeli's don't produce weapons in those sorts of numbers. Never did and likely never will. AFAIK the major client of the Galil ACE is Vietnam. Which AFAIK also use the 7.62x39mm round.
     
  2. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Did you I don't know, bothering to load it with a magazine with bullets? How about clambering a round or perhaps moving the safety to fire? No still not working? Are you missing any parts? LOL!

    Clearly written as some one who has no experience with an AR series.
    Early issues of the M16 series are well known and there were ultimately three routes for the cause of issues.
    First was the early Army M16. The Army Ordinance Board set against the rifles attempt at either incompetent management or out right sabotage by not issuing clea ing kits failure to chrome line the chamber and barrel and the shift of propellant types from a specially designed type the AR15 was designed for to the World war 2 era Ball type that increased timing of the cycle and resulted in bolt carrier bounce and increased fouling with residual particles that in the high humid conditions of South south east Asia produced trace amounts of acid in the weapon resulting in corrosion creating pits and erroding the has port leading to farther increases in operating cycles leading to malfunctions. This was all aired in the Congressional hearings on the matter and all fixed by 1968!!
    The only issue that remained was the STANAG aluminum 30 round magazine which revolved around the material. Cheap aluminum, if you have opened a soda or Beer can in the last 20 years you know that aluminum deforms and once deformed even if you attempt to return it to the original shape it will return to that deformation on in its own. This was tge leading mechanical malfunction of the AR series weapon for the past 45 +YEARS!!

    The shift and addition of a Piston system to the AR has in fact caused more mechanical malfunction issues than it ever solved. The main reason the HK416 and piston ARs came about has more to do with the want of pistol length AR systems which suffer do the abbreviated has system. Issues that although not as severe in are still problematic in very short barrel AK weapons like the AKS74U. Basically trying to turn a Assault rifle into a Submachine gun means huge sacrifices.
    stopping power is a myth and moving to 7.62x39mm wouldn't be a matter of range. As the 7.62x39mm round as a shorter effective range.
    The reason India went back to the 7.62x51mm was range.
    India has always maintained and will continue to maintain 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm.
     
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  3. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    That's a load of bull. The myth of the varment round. Fact is no matter the rifle the kill means of a combat weapon is primarily by hemorrhagic shock. IE bleeding to death. Doesn't matter of AK or AR.
    Farther more you can't use rifle rounds used in hunting in combat by law.
    1) depends on ammo type.
    2) that's what it was designed for. It was a modernised iteration of the US 30.06 round used in M1 Garande.
    The 7.62x51mm was created along side the US M14 allowing the M1 Garande to finally have a removable box magazine.
    quite wrong the 7.62x39mm is heavier than 5.56x45mm. Losses it's energy quickly and well less recoil than 7.62x51mm it is also far inferior in range.
    They did for some units but guess what elite units of the Pakistani military use 5.56x45mm NATO.
     
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  4. ohan_qwe
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    ohan_qwe New Member

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    I cannot find anything of that you cannot hunt deer with 5.56 but you can with 7.62x39 or an energy limit. It looks like the rules for different states may differ a bit different but nothing in the first Google page said anything about that. There were links that said that all centerfire rounds are OK. Could you provide a official source?
     
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  5. plawolf
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    plawolf Brigadier

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    Didn’t India just sign a deal to buy a large number of UAE AR15 variants for their army units facing China?

    I think the shift to 7.62 might be more for internal use, and that is down to combat experience.

    India has a Maoist rebel problem, and have suffered some seriously embarrassing combat losses. Such battles are fought in dense woodland/jungles, and against opposition without modern body armour.

    That’s very much like the original 5.56 vs 7.62 face off in Vietnam, so it makes sense that India might favour 7.62 for factors like superior barrier penetration and stopping power against unarmoured targets.
     
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  6. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Why yes they did the Caracal 816...
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...a-set-to-buy-95000-carbines-from-caracal/amp/
    Huh almost like... oh I have been saying this since post #2.
    And they are also buying 72,000 7.62x51mm Sig 716 rifles for use by mountain troops.
    and in close quarters the 7.62x39mm would do well.
    Against the Moaist rebels the INSAS reportedly did poorly. Despite being an AK derivative.
    Well not quite. The Indians appear to be tailoring there army based on mission. Units intended to be fighting conventional forces IE PLA get the Caracal in 5.56x45mm from the UAE.
    Units in the mountains of the Hindu Kush get range and reach of the Sig 716 from New Hampshire, USA. which might also be used as a DMR by those against the PLA.
    Then there are the second line and units against the Moaists and potentially in fighting along the line of control.
    They are likely getting AK203 rifles made in India.
     
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  7. Mohsin77
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    Mohsin77 Junior Member
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    I did some googling. Apparently its some states in the US that don't allow 5.56 NATO for deer.

    For example Colorado: "Minimum bullet weight requirements are 70 grains for antelope, bear, and deer; and 85 grains for elk and moose" (https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shooting/Best-Rifle-and-Caliber-for-Hunting-in-Colorado)

    5.56 NATO is 55 grains, 7.62x39 is 123 grain. So 7.62 would be available for deer and larger animals like Elk as well, but 556 will not, in Colorado.
     
  8. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    55 grain is actually a little dated now most military ammo went up to between 62 and 77 grains.
     
  9. Mohsin77
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    Mohsin77 Junior Member
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    lolz, good one. Yep, I tried those. What I didn't wanna try though, is frekkin cleaning and lubing the damn thing after every time I use it for fear of jamming, because the Direct Impingement system blasts all the fouling into the operating mechanism and burns off all the lubrication, because the HOT and DIRTY gasses are allowed into the breech, which is a ridiculous design.

    Oh I have plenty of experience with a good (piston) AR, like this one that I recently sold:

    IMAG0578.jpg

    ^ This was my baby... the civilian version of the HK 416.


    lol, yea it sounds pretty good if you just ignore all the mechanically ridiculous aspects of the Direct Impingement gas operation of the thing, which you did. Forget all of this, it pales in comparison to this basic design flaw.

    .....? Dude, I don't know who told you this, but you should stop listening to that person. Go ask someone like Larry Vickers why the SOF community wanted the 416. It's due to the much greater reliability of the piston system. You can abuse it like an AK and it will NOT fail you. It doesnt matter if you get sand, mud or water into the barrel or the chamber, it will still fire... and it will KEEP firing...

    Do you know, that I actually stopped cleaning and lubricating my piston AR? It was pointless to clean or lube it. Because every time I would disassemble it, the lubrication would still be there. It doesnt burn off like it does inside an DI AR. And there was nothing much to clean either. Because no hot and dirty gases are allowed into the firing mechanism.

    As for the other "mechanical malfuntions" you're talking about, they are mostly in crappy American made piston ARs that I would never buy. I'm talking about the basic mechanism of DI versus piston. And there is NO comparison. There is a reason why SOCOM spent all that money to swap out their M4s for 416s, even though the 416 is a super expensive firearm. It's mostly because of the issues with the crappy DI.

    The AK's legendary reliability was mostly due to its piston system from the start. The same thing goes for the G3 and FAL etc. Only the Americans chose the DI system, and it bit them in the ass. But they were too heavily invested in it to admit their mistake and ditch the DI AR. But all units that could afford to ditch it (SOFs) have already ditched it. The 416 is pretty much standard now in all SOFs and especially SMUs.

    Go tell that to a combat medic who has served in Iraq. I've seen them say that they've seen multiple 5.56 rounds go straight through people without them having realized they were shot. And they kept firing back at them. Sure they might have bled out later and died, but that wouldn't help you much in the moment.

    5.56 fanboys always bring up these fancy terms like "hemorrhagic shock" or whatever... But I wouldn't rely on such jargon to save you in a life or death situation. You can have your precious 5.56, but all else being equal, I'll go with the 7.62x39 any day.


    ??? You misread. I said the 7.62x39 is lighter than the 7.62NATO, not 556. Of course it's heavier than the 556 (because it's more powerful lol).

    How do you know the SSG isn't getting the BREN 2?
     
    #19 Mohsin77, Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  10. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Really?

    Really?

    Really
    Every time you say... bull shit.
    And No I can actually show you Larry talking about the HK416 it was interest from the SOF in SMG sized rifles.
    " Before the (HK)416 came along the guns being used for CQB purposes was the M4 Carbine with a 14 and a half inch barrel and also the Mp5, And the issue there is the M4 is a great gun and it did very well in the role except, it's a little bit to big."
    No complaints about jamming. No we wanted AK reliability. I can produce whole episodes of him on the M4 and AR15 as well as the AK.
    If you watch he said exactly what I said the reason they moved to the Piston gun was that for a short barrel. To get better better pressure curve in cycling the operation Colt had to keep the barrel length at 14.5 inches. It was HK's marketing department that pushed "A better gun" as there is no actual way they could have sold the US on buying HK416.
    Farther more you are more wrong.
    Only parts of socom Adopted the HK416 and it still widely uses the M4A1 infact it just issues upgrades.
    http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/0...ith-a-new-upper-receiver-group-for-its-m4a1s/
    For them.in the form of URG which although not the stock Direct impingement system is still DI it uses a Mid length system to improve the cycling with newer hotter ammo types. And if that was not enough the HK416 might not last much longer in Socom Soon because of the SURG which is again specialized by a suppressor and short barrel length based off the Sig MCX. Being blunt HK416 is a little dated heavier than it needs to be and has no commonality with the regular issue.

    Now adding the Piston did cause issues when combined with the M855A1. The rounds were damaging the upper and breaking bolts of the HK416 because the Piston system wasn't designed for the high pressure ammo another issue that has come up is piston tilt where in the Piston in cycle doesn't go back into battery properly leaving the weapon jammed.
    Americans, British(SF), Australia (SF), Argentina, Canada, Chinese Units, Iranian military units via Chinese rifles, Vietnam, Israel, Bahrain, France SF, Philippines, Pakistan, India, Albania, Syria, Russian SF, Japanese SF, Columbia,
    These are a few off the top of my head. There are many many more. Often the choice of Special Forces units who know how to use the rifle and it's features.
    That can happen with any rifle or pistol or any weapon at all.
    Fact is mammals are hard to kill.
    And killing a human being isn't like the movies. People have survived AK rounds people have survived getting building dropped on them. People have had knives stabbed through there skulls and walked to the hospital.
    If you want a weapon that a near miss would absolutely kill the target I sudgets a 120mm smooth bore tank shell. I AM NOT KIDDING!
    Let me explain it to you. There are three ways in which a human being can die. The first is destroying the central nervous system. That can be done in two ways 1)produce a massive amount of pain to cause the brain to basically over load. That's just about impossible. People have been struck by lightning and lived.
    Weapons that try to do this attempt to create Hydrostatic shock where in through the penitration of the round the bullet attempts to create a massive wound cavity that would send enough pain impulse as to overload the central nervous system. Or create enough of a shockwave through then internal organs to destroy them there by setting in some degree of shock. However military weapons are by convention limited in this.
    2) is to physically destroy brain stem that controls these functions. That requires a direct impact by a weapon to the brain stem it's not easy. It's a small portion of human anatomy.

    After this is shock. Shock can be toxic where in the body is no longer able to maintain its chemical balance. Or hemorrhagic shock.
    I'm toxic shock the organs shut down normally due to poisoning.
    In Hemorrhage because the Body has lost blood pressure and is no longer able to maintain oxygen saturation of the tissues.

    A bullet passing through some one and then not even feeling it is entirely possible no matter the caliber of round of the bullet didn't pass through a critical portion of the anatomy of the victim. However that individual will still have a hole in them a hole that without treatment can cause them to bleed to death or become infected.
    You cannot expect to shoot someone in the hand and expect them to drop dead. You can shoot them through a number of parts of the body with diminishing effects unless you happen to hit something vital. Even then it can take hours for the effects to take hold. It doesn't matter if it's a .22 LR or a 14.5mm round. Stopping power is a myth.
    So superstition and witch doctors?
    More Myths. LoL. It's heavier because it was designed based on world war 2. The idea being that the Russian experience of the war left them to feel that battles would be between 0 and 300 meters.
    5.56x45mm was designed to offer a round that was lighter in weight and smaller in size allowing more to be carried by the soldier, less recoil to allow easier shooting in automatic fire and longer range M4 as an effective range of 500 meters from a 368mm barrel, an AKM >350 meters from a 414mm barrel.
    Same is true of most DI rifles fact is most civilian shooters don't push there weapons anywhere near as hard as a military shooter would.

    Cleaning is needed no matter the rifle DI, Short strike or long stroke but what I am hearing from you is myths and rumors regurgitated again and again. You don't need to lube and clean a AR everyday. But like your car it should be serviced ever so often. It sounds to me like you were going above and beyond because of so called experts.
    Depends on how much but as a rule of the barrel is flooded Rifle go BOOM. Most people don't fire with a flooded barrel though they AT least have the half a brain needed to shake any water from the barrel or better yet put a condom on the muzzle. It's a lot cheaper and less emotional an event than having your rifle explode in your face.
    1) Bren 2 is multicaliber meaning that it can be set up as 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm. And last images of SSH I saw were a group of them with SIg 556 PDW and M4A1.
    2) the Pakistani have not placed a firm order for Bren yet.
    3)in September Colt got a FMS contract for M4A1 to Pakistan.

    Now case closed.
     
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