the PLAAF VIP-aircraft

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
It is rare to see China's top leaders using helicopters as a routine mode of transportation, more often they're seen using a mixture of land transportation
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I suspect that they are going to be using Helicopters more and more....
VIP ground vehicles are okay if you rarely need to use them and the area has light traffic. However as Beijing traffic increases It's only logical that use of helicopters would be favored by higher status as VIP convoys would be in a dangerous position if trapped in the middle of a Traffic jam.
Russian President Putin, regularly uses a VIP Mi-8 for commuting as he stopped living in the Kremlin and moved more and more offices to the Novo-Ogaryovo residence outside Moscow.MI8vip.jpg
atc8psl65ps5doveyqge.jpg Now as to
they might be using an ordinary military transport (e.g. Mi-171) available nearby, rather than bringing their own VIP helicopter--considering China's size that might be impractical.
In the US There are 2 sizes of Marine One the one most often seen in Washington is the full sized Sea King type roughly the same size as an MI8 and to be replaced by the S97
But there is also a smaller VH60 based off the Blackhawk that can be loaded aboard C17. For the PRC an option like that might be to load a Z9 on a Y20.
 

superdog

Junior Member
I suspect that they are going to be using Helicopters more and more....
VIP ground vehicles are okay if you rarely need to use them and the area has light traffic. However as Beijing traffic increases It's only logical that use of helicopters would be favored by higher status as VIP convoys would be in a dangerous position if trapped in the middle of a Traffic jam.
Russian President Putin, regularly uses a VIP Mi-8 for commuting as he stopped living in the Kremlin and moved more and more offices to the Novo-Ogaryovo residence outside Moscow.
Some possible reasons why they have not used helicopters that often:
1.There will be traffic control for VIP convoys if they are moving on public roads, it is unlikely that they will get trapped in a traffic jam.
2.They have underground passageways (rail and/or car tunnel) that connects Zhongnanhai with various locations, including the national rail network and the Xijiao Airport. These are evacuation routes but can also be used during non-emergency. They don't have to go through the surrounding public roads if they want to stay low key, or if it is too inconvenient to clear the streets.
3. Beijing and its surrounding areas tend to experience poor weather with bad visibility in the winter, making helicopter operations difficult.
4. They are only ~10km away from the government airport, a helicopter ride directly from the office won't be that much faster. Traveling on the ground will be more stealthy vs. everyone seeing the helicopters come and go and become aware of your schedule. Noise may also be a consideration.

In the US There are 2 sizes of Marine One the one most often seen in Washington is the full sized Sea King type roughly the same size as an MI8 and to be replaced by the S97
But there is also a smaller VH60 based off the Blackhawk that can be loaded aboard C17. For the PRC an option like that might be to load a Z9 on a Y20.
But what for? It has little use for them when visiting other provinces and cities. Using it to replace the ground trip from the local airport to their actual destination? Landing a helicopter outside an airport requires lots of preparation for VIP level safety, Chinese cities are not famous for having helipads dotted around. It will be a pain in the ass compared to a traditional ground convoy, not to mention being less flexible.

If, in rare occasions, they need to visit places where ground accessibility is limited or too far away from the nearest airport, they could use a VIP helicopter if it is close enough to Beijing, or if planned well ahead. In most cases (e.g. responding to a disaster) it makes more sense to just utilize the local fleet of military helicopters. Shipping a Z-9 from Beijing seems unnecessary.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
View attachment 35867
I suspect that they are going to be using Helicopters more and more....
VIP ground vehicles are okay if you rarely need to use them and the area has light traffic. However as Beijing traffic increases It's only logical that use of helicopters would be favored by higher status as VIP convoys would be in a dangerous position if trapped in the middle of a Traffic jam.

Beijing's traffic has been awful for years, but there is effectively zero risk for a VIP convoy in pretty much any Eastern Chinese. There is simply no remotely conceivable way anyone could threaten a VIP convoy in China, even if it is sat stationary in heavy traffic.

From a purely safety and security stand point, the dangers of an air crash are significantly higher than any realistic ground threat.

The only significant advantage helicopter would offer is faster travel and more prestige.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Beijing's traffic has been awful for years, but there is effectively zero risk for a VIP convoy in pretty much any Eastern Chinese. There is simply no remotely conceivable way anyone could threaten a VIP convoy in China, even if it is sat stationary in heavy traffic.
Why ?
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Ban on firearms and effective state security.

Terrrorists in China are restricted to knives and vehicles.

In many Europeans countries also and officials convoys don' t stop since always.
A convoy is very vulnerable stopped and it is the great fear of security services.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Because they use the Farce.....
IF Chinese Security think like that then they are not doing there job.
The First rule of VIP security is There is no such thing as a safe place.
Firearms sales may be restricted, but there are still ways around that. The weapons they get may not be as reliable or as stable but they are there.
And Vehicle borne IEDs are classic terror tactics especially if that VIP is standing still. A few household chemicals in the right mix Even a Vehicle ramming can do damage.
VIP convoys like to use speed and maneuver they keep going but if you try to use that in Gridlock it's like trying to push a mountain.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Some possible reasons why they have not used helicopters that often:
1.There will be traffic control for VIP convoys if they are moving on public roads, it is unlikely that they will get trapped in a traffic jam.
Only works when you have absolute control of the roads.
2.They have underground passageways (rail and/or car tunnel) that connects Zhongnanhai with various locations, including the national rail network and the Xijiao Airport. These are evacuation routes but can also be used during non-emergency. They don't have to go through the surrounding public roads if they want to stay low key, or if it is too inconvenient to clear the streets.
That I did not know but it limits to only where the tunnels exit or enter.
3. Beijing and its surrounding areas tend to experience poor weather with bad visibility in the winter, making helicopter operations difficult.
So is DC. Heck DC is literally Swamp land.
4. They are only ~10km away from the government airport, a helicopter ride directly from the office won't be that much faster. Traveling on the ground will be more stealthy vs. everyone seeing the helicopters come and go and become aware of your schedule. Noise may also be a consideration.
That assumes direct access from inside the start of transit to end destination.


But what for? It has little use for them when visiting other provinces and cities.[/quote] helicopter cops are faster than road travel and mean having to expend less resources controlling roads.
Using it to replace the ground trip from the local airport to their actual destination?
Depends on the Trip. The President of the US for example can make the whole trip from the Rose garden to the UN HQ for a speech and be back in time for supper.
Landing a helicopter outside an airport requires lots of preparation for VIP level safety,
So Does a Road trip not counting the additional security along the way.
Chinese cities are not famous for having helipads dotted around.
Just need a flat surface, They added a Padd to the Kremlin, The White house just uses the Rose garden, So does the Queen of England. A Helicopter can land just about anywhere from a building rooftop to a parking lot.
It will be a pain in the ass compared to a traditional ground convoy, not to mention being less flexible.
How? you don't need a escort or to redirect traffic. and as to less flexible the only issues are fuel.

If, in rare occasions, they need to visit places where ground accessibility is limited or too far away from the nearest airport, they could use a VIP helicopter if it is close enough to Beijing, or if planned well ahead. In most cases (e.g. responding to a disaster) it makes more sense to just utilize the local fleet of military helicopters. Shipping a Z-9 from Beijing seems unnecessary.
Except if that local helicopter is needed for heli rescue you have just lost it so some VVIP can make a show.
Additionally you make an error here "close enough to Beijing" The Z9 is based on the Eurocopter EC155 that has a operational range of over 500 miles. that means it could travel 250 miles from Beijing
That covers
China - Hebei - Langfang 32 miles South-southeast
China - Tianjin Municipality - Tianjin 70 miles Southeast
China - Hebei - Baoding 87 miles Southwest
China - Hebei - Tangshan 97 miles East
China - Shanxi - Datong 165 miles West
China - Hebei - Shijiazhuang 166 miles Southwest
China - Hebei - Qinhuangdao 170 miles East
China - Shandong - Jinan 226 miles South
China - Shandong - Zibo 233 miles South-southeast
China - Hebei - Handan 250 miles South-southwest
And These are limiting to 250 miles based on no refuel and that is me rounding down.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
IF Chinese Security think like that then they are not doing there job.
The First rule of VIP security is There is no such thing as a safe place.

While that may be the first 'rule' it also needs to be applied with some basic common sense and risk analysis. Or do you think all VIPs have armed security staring at them ALL the time, even when they are in the shower, on the toilet etc?

Firearms sales may be restricted, but there are still ways around that. The weapons they get may not be as reliable or as stable but they are there.

When was the last time terrorists actually managed to get their hands on such weapons? Never mind smuggle them to highly protected places like Beijing?

Sure, anything is theoretically possible, but you also have to balance that against what is reasonably likely.

Otherwise you risk placing yourself and client in greater risk 'countering' some obscure, exceedingly unlikely worst case scenario, which you are nevertheless already well placed to counter.

Case in point arguing VIPs should abandon their existing, perfectly capable armed convoys for helicopters instead.

As I said, the risk from an air crash is going to be significantly higher than the odds of an actual successful terrorist attack against conventional convoys.

That's before you take into account new gen threats like drones.

I would argue it is orders of magnitude more likely for assassins or terrorists to mount a successful attack on a VIP by strapping an IED onto the biggest, fastest and longest range commercial drone they could buy and flying that into a VIP helicopter, especially on landing or take off. Rather than trying to source illegal firearms and mounting a commando attack against a VIP convoy.

And Vehicle borne IEDs are classic terror tactics especially if that VIP is standing still. A few household chemicals in the right mix Even a Vehicle ramming can do damage.

So VIP convoy is stuck in traffic unable to move despite police escort, but terrorist attackers are not impeded at all by said same traffic? Who's using the 'Farce' really?

VIP convoys like to use speed and maneuver they keep going but if you try to use that in Gridlock it's like trying to push a mountain.

Which is why you have local police close roads and divert traffic ahead of the convoy.

But again, speed isn't the only defense such convoys can rely on. Good old fashion firepower and bodies also count, and I would argue against the kinds of threats such convoys could realistically face in China, that alone would be supreme overkill to fend off any attack other than a state sponcered special forces raid.

Speed and manoeuvre are only critically important if you haven't got the firepower or numbers to fight off an ambush.

And in case you have not figure it out, being stuck in traffic was a worst case scenario to illustrate the point, not what actually or is reasonably expected to be the norm.

If a VIP convoy does get stuff in traffic, then someone has dropped the ball massively. But even that does not make a convoy all that vulnerable in somewhere like Beijing.
 

superdog

Junior Member
Only works when you have absolute control of the roads.
"You" are the top leadership of China and "you" have complete cooperation from the city's traffic management system and the local police force. Why would they not have absolute control of the roads?

That I did not know but it limits to only where the tunnels exit or enter.
It exits to other transportation hubs like the Airport (and perhaps also to some bunker-command center). China is large and most destinations would justify using a government jet. You don't need tunnels that connect directly to your destination, that is not a limit.

So is DC. Heck DC is literally Swamp land. That assumes direct access from inside the start of transit to end destination.
So DC's problem with smog and sandstorm is as bad as Beijing? That's not what I've heard.

helicopter cops are faster than road travel and mean having to expend less resources controlling roads.
Use the local armed police to control traffic vs. ferry multiple large helicopters for 1000+ km and then back (and that distance is just for visiting Shanghai, if you're visiting Chengdu, Lhasa or Guangzhou on the other hand......), you're telling me the second option use less resources?

By the way, you do know the entourage of a state level leader cannot be fitted into a Z-9 or even a Z-15/Z-20, right? I doubt they can even fit the team into one of their Super Puma or an AC313, unless you're giving up VIP treatment for economy class.

Depends on the Trip. The President of the US for example can make the whole trip from the Rose garden to the UN HQ for a speech and be back in time for supper. So Does a Road trip not counting the additional security along the way. Just need a flat surface, They added a Padd to the Kremlin, The White house just uses the Rose garden, So does the Queen of England. A Helicopter can land just about anywhere from a building rooftop to a parking lot.

Additionally you make an error here "close enough to Beijing" The Z9 is based on the Eurocopter EC155 that has a operational range of over 500 miles. that means it could travel 250 miles from Beijing
That covers
China - Hebei - Langfang 32 miles South-southeast
China - Tianjin Municipality - Tianjin 70 miles Southeast
China - Hebei - Baoding 87 miles Southwest
China - Hebei - Tangshan 97 miles East
China - Shanxi - Datong 165 miles West
China - Hebei - Shijiazhuang 166 miles Southwest
China - Hebei - Qinhuangdao 170 miles East
China - Shandong - Jinan 226 miles South
China - Shandong - Zibo 233 miles South-southeast
China - Hebei - Handan 250 miles South-southwest
And These are limiting to 250 miles based on no refuel and that is me rounding down.
Well if they move the UN HQ to Tianjin or Dalian then it would be comparable. For now the Chinese leadership has no reason to frequently visit locations that are best suited for helicopter range. Most destinations within China are at jet range, the list you posted is just a very limited set of destinations that contain no major points of political interest like the UN HQ. One has to appreciate the size of China here.

How? you don't need a escort or to redirect traffic. and as to less flexible the only issues are fuel
So I guess you're not familiar with airliner operations? You don't just get a GPS coordinate, gauge your fuel level, and then fly there. You need to have things planned, memorize your charts, have your routes cleared by the ATC, have weather en-route taken into account, have all the emergency backup plans ready, and the pilots should be familiar with the route and the locations, preferably try it a few times before their actual mission if they're not landing at an airport. This is true not just for commercial jets but also for helicopters, because we're talking about VIP level safety, not hobbyist flying or combat missions which could tolerate higher risks.

So believe it or not, if you require a high level of safety, planning an air route is less flexible than traveling in a minibus with escorts and traffic control along the way. It may not be true in Iraq, but it is true in China where the land is generally safe and the security forces are competent.

Not to mention helicopters, no matter how luxurious, are less comfortable. A VIP-config minibus is cheaper, quieter, and offers more stable ride. It is generally a better environment for work discussions or taking a nap.

Except if that local helicopter is needed for heli rescue you have just lost it so some VVIP can make a show.
Oh come on, the PLA is under-equipped in helicopters but they're not THAT under-equipped. It is not like they only have one usable helicopter in every army aviation or AF units.

Besides, if it is really that bad (it is not), then it only further justifies the leadership's preference for minibuses rather than helicopters, for they should act as role models in cost-saving and pour more money into equipping military helicopters.
 
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