The Navy of Brazil

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Max TO on a Phantom is 28030 kg and max TO on a Buccaneer was 28123 kg. Still not quite as heavy as a Super Hornet, but certainly heavier than a Rafael. It's a moot point, the Clemenceau and Foch elevators were only rated for 15,000 kg. Also, those catapults do not use a launch bar but instead the old fashioned bridle. Hornets can't be launched that way. RN Phantoms used the bridle but not USN Phantoms, and they had different nose gear as a result. Not sure about the Rafael. It was tested on Foch but if you look at videos of it on Charles de Gaulle it uses a modern launch bar. I wonder if the prototype was specially configured for Foch? Can anyone find any vids or photos of the tests on Foch? I can't.

Aircraft are only moved on the elevators between the flight deck and hangar deck when empty, ie unfueled and unarmed. Fuelling and arming takes place on the flight deck, not the hangar deck, so elevator capacity has to be measured against the empty weight of the aircraft, not max Take off weight. The Buccaneer's empty wieght was about 14,000kgs, meaning folded it could even ride an Invincible's lifts without problems (capacity 18,000kgs). The Phantom had an empty weight of 13,757 kgs (give or take depending on model) and the Sea Vixen empty weighed 12,680 kg. The Super Hornet comes in at 13,900 kgs, so should fit on Sao Paolo's elevators OK. The Rafale 's empty weight is about 10,196 kgs, with a Max Take off weight of 22,200 kgs.

Foch and Charles de Gaulle have catapult shuttles fitted for dual use, ie both wire bridle and nose tow launching, for the simple reason that whilst the Rafale uses the modern nose tow method, the Super Etendard still to this day uses the wire bridle method for launching. Most US carriers through the 60s 70s 80s and into the 90s were also fitted with dual use shuttles as the in service aircraft used a mix of the two methods. As the older types were withdrawn from service (such as the RA-5 Vigilante, RF-8 Crusader, F-4 Phantom, even the T2 Buckeye) the carriers were progressively refitted with the bridle catchers (trackes and the protruding extension at the end of the deck) removed. The shuttles I believe can still take a wire bridle when cross decking foreign types like the SEM, A4 Skyhawk and S2 Tracker, though I believe the visitors are required to bring their own bridles for launch! And becuase the catchers have been removed they don't get them back afterwards...
 
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Ambivalent

Junior Member
I see the PLAN is trying to work a deal with Brazil to pay them to repair the Sao Paulo's currently inoperative boilers and overhaul the ship in return for training up a batch of carrier qualified pilots. I wonder how long it will take for the US to have it's own counter offer, possibly tied to buying F/A-18's?
 

Aero_Wing_32

Junior Member
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Officials: Brazil To Buy French Fighter Jets
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 7 Sep 2009 12:17

BRASILIA - Brazil is to buy 36 high-performance Rafale fighter jets from France in a deal worth billions of dollars, both countries said in a joint statement on Sept. 7.

France will also buy 10 military transport aircraft from Brazil, it said.

The announcement was made as French President Nicolas Sarkozy attended Brazil's Independence Day celebrations in Brasilia as guest of honor of President Inacio Lula da Silva.


Brazil would assemble Rafale fighter jets under this deal with France, and could sell them to other Latin American nations, Brazil Foreign Minister Celso Amorim said Monday. It was told somewhere that some Rafales would be also operative for the Sao Paulo Carreer.
This USD 7 billions deal is for sure a very big one for France.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
It's good to see that the Rafale is getting some export clients. It's a good aircraft, and it's very very good looking. The French were probably pretty desperate for a sale because according to that article they agreed to buy aircraft from Brazil (what transport aircraft does Brazil produce?) so that should offset some of Brazil's cost for the fighters. The Brazilians did a good job negotiating this one. After this we should see the "Great South American Arms Upgrade" continue.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
It's good to see that the Rafale is getting some export clients. It's a good aircraft, and it's very very good looking. The French were probably pretty desperate for a sale because according to that article they agreed to buy aircraft from Brazil (what transport aircraft does Brazil produce?) so that should offset some of Brazil's cost for the fighters. The Brazilians did a good job negotiating this one. After this we should see the "Great South American Arms Upgrade" continue.

Embraer is working on the C-390; it's slightly smaller than the C-130 Hercules, and is supposed to look and perform very similarly to the Kawasaki C-1.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The impression I'm getting is that the French has decided, any export of the Rafale is better than no export. They bent over backwards to get this deal through.
 

Sczepan

Senior Member
VIP Professional
..... Brazilians Should be buying super Hornets or Rafale's for there navy along with there long awaited Next Air force Fighter, as these are the airframes most suited too the Launch and operation of the Sao Paulo (Foch)
they did:

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Officials: Brazil To Buy French Fighter Jets
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 7 Sep 2009 12:17

BRASILIA - Brazil is to buy 36 high-performance Rafale fighter jets from France in a deal worth billions of dollars, both countries said in a joint statement on Sept. 7.
...
 

Aero_Wing_32

Junior Member
Let the brazilian militaries deliver their technical report about the 3 contenders, first. Even if the political choice has been stated publicly and officially.

All in all, I am not sure (if what I heard is true) that USA proposed the best standard of the F-18 to the Brazilian Air Force.

And the Gripen version proposed is... still virtual.

French would deliver a custom and for sure excellent F-3 multirole standard with advance AESA radar with better avionic, and all the future MBDA missiles like the famous Meteor. This aircraft fits also with the Sao Paulo carrier.

The french technological transfer is big for sure. But ties between France and Brazil were probably underestimated by some people. This transfer, USA proposed it very late in the purchasing process, that could be understood as a lack of consideration of the Brazilian needs.

This mistake, and I think it s a big one, won t be made in the Indian competition, after the big official agreement signed between USA and India recently, but far behind the end of the long evaluation process of the aircrafts.

That s my point.
 

Ambivalent

Junior Member
I don't think the US is anxious to share some technologies in the Super Hornet. It is under rated in some significant ways in the popular press.
 
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