The Navy of Brazil

Finn McCool · May 13, 2009

planeman said:
Minor point but Sea Harrier is retired. Now RAF/FAA deploy Harrier GR9s to the carriers and only have Sidewinders for defence, much like the Brazilians. Where the Brits have a huge advantage is in the quality of the escorts.

Damn I couldn't remember if they were retired or not, I remembered hearing that they were, but I thought "The Royal Navy wouldn't allow that to happen, only Sidewinders for air defence, no way." But I guess budget cuts are budget cuts. It's bad to have selective memory.

Obi Wan Russell · May 13, 2009

For AEW I think the E-2 would be out of Brazil's price range, and the aircraft itself might be marginal for her catapults (British BS-5s, 151ft stroke). A more suitable solution might be to acquire six or more S-2 Trackers from AMARC, convert them to S-2T Turbo Tracker standard and equip them with a palletised radar system like Cereberus (currently theoretical I know, but definitely feasible). Deploy three to four aboard ship and the rest shoreside for training/attrition replacements. As to the strike aircraft component, Sao Paolo is operating well below her capacity at present. She has room aboard to operate up to 40 Skyhawks, yet Brazil only bought about 23 aircraft. If their Skyhawks were upgraded along the lines of the New Zealand 'Kahu' aircraft with an off the shelf radar such as APG-65. Also buying up surplus stocks of Super Etendard Modernise from France as they are retired to fill out the air group, so the Skyhawks could be moved to the air defence role (with radar the possibility of AMRAAM or at least Sparrow being carried enters the game) with strike as a secondary role in support of the SEMs.

So I'd envisage an air group of 12-14 radar equipped Skyhawks, up to 18 SEMs, 4 S-2T AEW Trackers and six helos for SAR (Sea Kings, currently in service, supplemented by second hand examples from either Britain or the US). As for shipboard defence, rather than wishing for an area defence system that would break the back of the Brazilian defence budget, how about something simple, self contained and relatively inexpensive? Two RAM systems backed up by a pair of Phalanx guns, one each port and starboard.

Jeff Head · May 13, 2009

Obi Wan Russell said:
For AEW I think the E-2 would be out of Brazil's price range, and the aircraft itself might be marginal for her catapults (British BS-5s, 151ft stroke). A more suitable solution might be to acquire six or more S-2 Trackers from AMARC, convert them to S-2T Turbo Tracker standard and equip them with a palletised radar system like Cereberus (currently theoretical I know, but definitely feasible).

If their Skyhawks were upgraded along the lines of the New Zealand 'Kahu' aircraft with an off the shelf radar such as APG-65. Also buying up surplus stocks of Super Etendard Modernise from France as they are retired to fill out the air group, so the Skyhawks could be moved to the air defence role (with radar the possibility of AMRAAM or at least Sparrow being carried enters the game) with strike as a secondary role in support of the SEMs.

As for shipboard defence, rather than wishing for an area defence system that would break the back of the Brazilian defence budget, how about something simple, self contained and relatively inexpensive? Two RAM systems backed up by a pair of Phalanx guns, one each port and starboard.

A squadron of S-2Ts would be good for ASW work, but not for AEW unless signifcantly modifed (as you point out). That's why I also indicated the E-1 Tracer, which was a derivitive of the S-2 designed specifally for AEW work and was the forerunner of the E-2C Hawkeye. There are quite a few of the E-1s sitting around gathering still which could possibly be refitted.

The A-4 can certainly carry the Sidewinder and has done so for self defense purposes. I am not sure that the only limiting factor for the Sparrow on the Skyhawk however is the lack of a suitable radar. I'll have to check into that.

Super Etenards would be nice in the attack role and are still be used for that purpose by the French today and would certainly work on the Sao Paulo...since they already did when she was the Foch.

A couple of RAM launchers on the Sao Paulo would be great for close-in, point defense for the vessel itself. My earlier comments were more geared towards the escorts and area air defense, as you point out. I believe for their carrier that the Brazilians need area air defense and could approach obtaining it in various manners with various vessels. The Kidd class would have been exellent candidates quite frankly...but there are other US and non-US platforms available that could give them a significant capability (that they lack now) without haveing to go all the way to AEIGIS, PAAMS, SEAWACO, or other most modern system.

I also believe an upgrade in ASW escort capabilities would be important for them. The Trackers would help there for sure too, but they need a good screen of escorts with helos doing inner circle work, and work out on the travel and threat axis.

BTW, there are pics of S-2s operating off of the Sao Paulo. They are probably the Argentine S-2s from the doing their quals after the 25 Mayo was decomm'ed ...but who knows? maybe somewhere in there is a deal in the works.

cmb=1968 · May 13, 2009

Jeff Head said:
A squadron of S-2Ts would be good for ASW work, but not for AEW. That's why I also indicated the E-1, which was a derivitive of the S-2 designed specifally for AEW work and was the forerunner of the E-2C Hawkeye. There are quite a few of the E-1 sitting around still which could possible be refitted.

The A-4 can certainly carry the Sidewinder and has done so for self defense purposes. I am not sure that the only limiting factor for the Sparrow on the Skyhawk however is the lack of a suitable radar. I'll have to check into that.

Super Etenards would be nice in the attack role and are still be used for that purpose by the French today and would certainly work on the Sao Paulo...since they already did when she was the Foch.

A couple of RAM launchers on the Sao Paulo would be great for close-in, point defense. My earlier comments were more geared towards the escorts and area air defense. I believe for their carrier that the Brazilians need area air defense and could approach obtaining it in various manners with various vessels. The Kidd class would have been exellent candidates quite frankly...but there are other US and non-US platforms available that could give them a significant capability (that they lack now) without haveing to go all the way to AEIGIS, PAAMS, SEAWACO, or other most modern system.

I also believe an upgrade in ASW escort capabilities would be important for them. The Trackers would help there for sure too, but they need a good screen of escorts with helos doing inner circle work, and work out on the travel and threat axis.

BTW, there are pics of S-2s operating off of the Sao Paulo. They are probably the Argentine S-2s from the doing their quals after the 25 Mayo was decomm'ed ...but who knows? maybe somewhere in there is a deal in the works.

[qimg]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/3160655433_9e43b3d599.jpg?v=0[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2004/saopaulo/ship.jpg[/qimg]

Does Israel still operate A-4 as a reserve force?

TerraN_EmpirE · May 13, 2009

First @cmp=1968 a Request please don't quote a Post directly above you it's annoying;

Second only in Pilot training' but they are said too be looking at systems Too replace those.

Obi Wan Russell · May 14, 2009

My suggestions were based on maximum bang for minimum bucks, remember Brazil bought the carrier itself for $15million, less than the cost of a single modern fighter jet. Talk of equipping her with a sqn or two of Hornets should be seen in that light. I suggested the S-2T for AEW in preference to the E-1(T) as the latter is optimised for an overhead radar antennae, whereas the Cereberus system as used on the Sea King ASaC 7 has a much smaller radome that extends below the fuselage. The S-2 Tracker also had a radar that extended below the fuselage, albeit a smaller one for ASW only, but struck me as more suitable for adaptation. If the radar chosen for the task utilised a larger rotating antenae then the E-1 obviouly becomes the best candidate aircraft. Currently I would optimise the air group for the strike role over ASW, as the latter can be adequately handled by a sqn of Sea Kings for task group defence. This would allow Brazil's participation in more UN operations which would help raise the profile of Brazil (Which was a major reason for retaining and enhancing Brzil's carrier capability in the first place). If the submarine threat increased significantly then rebalancing the air group with more S-2T (ASW) and less SEMs is always an option, and these can indeed be provided at short notice by Argentina, as indeed happens now anyway.

As to area defence, yes this is a glaring deficiency in Brazil's fleet at the moment. I don't see Brazil acquiring Aegis unless the US is willing to seel some of the older Ticos at rock bottom prices (always a possibility to be fair). Otherwise Brazil will most likely look to buy second hand DDGs from a western Navy, at least as a stop gap. Pretty sure we'll be able to do them a good deal on four or five Type 42s in the next few years...

Jeff Head · May 14, 2009

Obi Wan Russell said:
My suggestions were based on maximum bang for minimum bucks, remember Brazil bought the carrier itself for $15million, less than the cost of a single modern fighter jet. Talk of equipping her with a sqn or two of Hornets should be seen in that light. I suggested the S-2T for AEW in preference to the E-1(T) as the latter is optimised for an overhead radar antennae, whereas the Cereberus system as used on the Sea King ASaC 7 has a much smaller radome that extends below the fuselage. The S-2 Tracker also had a radar that extended below the fuselage, albeit a smaller one for ASW only, but struck me as more suitable for adaptation. If the radar chosen for the task utilised a larger rotating antenae then the E-1 obviouly becomes the best candidate aircraft. Currently I would optimise the air group for the strike role over ASW, as the latter can be adequately handled by a sqn of Sea Kings for task group defence. This would allow Brazil's participation in more UN operations which would help raise the profile of Brazil (Which was a major reason for retaining and enhancing Brzil's carrier capability in the first place). If the submarine threat increased significantly then rebalancing the air group with more S-2T (ASW) and less SEMs is always an option, and these can indeed be provided at short notice by Argentina, as indeed happens now anyway.

As to area defence, yes this is a glaring deficiency in Brazil's fleet at the moment. I don't see Brazil acquiring Aegis unless the US is willing to seel some of the older Ticos at rock bottom prices (always a possibility to be fair). Otherwise Brazil will most likely look to buy second hand DDGs from a western Navy, at least as a stop gap. Pretty sure we'll be able to do them a good deal on four or five Type 42s in the next few years...

Great points and good discussion Obi Wan.

The talk of the AEW reminds me all the more why a AEW variant of the M-22 would be a good idea.

If a good AEW radar were available for the S-2, then that would certainly be a step well above where the Brazillians are. I beleve, if they could be brought out of mothballs and reconditioned, that the E-1 would even be a better move...and could probably be had fairly cheaply.

The Type 42s would be an excellent upgrade for the Brazilians and would, again, provide a significant upgrade in capability ver where they are now.

A potential Brazilian airgroup could then consist of 16 A4s optimized for fleet air defense and to augment/defend strike packages, 8 Super Etinards for attack, 4 S-2T for ASW, 3 AEW aircraft of some variety (E-1s, S-2s, etc.) and 2-4 helos and 2 cargo aircraft.

The Sao Paulo could also use a couple of RAM launchers to sugment its own, close-in air defense, and then be comprised of a complete Carrier strike group consisting of the Sao Paulo itself, two Type 42 DDGs for area air defense and ASW duties and then two of their existing Type 22 frigates and two of their existing Niterio class (Type 21) frigates.

If they sent such a group to sea, they would then have a very decent and serious carrier group IMHO.

Scratch · May 14, 2009

Probably directly connected to the ongoing discussion.

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FAB three: Brazil fighter competition heats up as race enters final straight

... All the signs are that the announcement of the winner will take place as planned in October 2009. The three-way contest is now between the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen. The initial buy is for 36 aircraft but, with anticipated follow-ons needed to replace the majority of the FAB's fleet, the total programme numbers could be as high as 100-120 fighters. ...

The AF is on the verge of selecting a new fighter. One of them being a naval one, and one having a naval variant.
Could the SH or Rafale operate off the Sao Paulo's deck with a decent load or is the cat too weak?
If the AF is buying one of the carrier capable fighters anyway, there should be a change for the navy to participate and maybe get some extra fighters in a good deal. That would at least upvalue the airwing tremendously. But then again, such an investment is probably only worth it when the escorts' defensive capability is also adapted/improved. Otherwise the risk of loosing these new high value assets seems too big.

Delbert · May 14, 2009

We do not know really what the strategy of the Brazilian Navy, but who knows they just wanted to have a carrier operational to prove to the world that they had world class Navy.

Or just to compete with Argentina's Navy, since it also had a carrier. If I am not mistaken Brazil aspires to be the most powerful country in South America. So being the most powerful they have to show that they also have carriers.

Just look at the Navy of Thailand, they had a carrier but was their surface fleet really that competent enough? The Singapore Navy's surface warships was even better than that of the Royal Thai Navy.

harryRIEDL · May 17, 2009

Jeff Head said:
Great points and good discussion Obi Wan.

The talk of the AEW reminds me all the more why a AEW variant of the M-22 would be a good idea.

If a good AEW radar were available for the S-2, then that would certainly be a step well above where the Brazillians are. I beleve, if they could be brought out of mothballs and reconditioned, that the E-1 would even be a better move...and could probably be had fairly cheaply.

The Type 42s would be an excellent upgrade for the Brazilians and would, again, provide a significant upgrade in capability ver where they are now.

A potential Brazilian airgroup could then consist of 16 A4s optimized for fleet air defense and to augment/defend strike packages, 8 Super Etinards for attack, 4 S-2T for ASW, 3 AEW aircraft of some variety (E-1s, S-2s, etc.) and 2-4 helos and 2 cargo aircraft.

The Sao Paulo could also use a couple of RAM launchers to sugment its own, close-in air defense, and then be comprised of a complete Carrier strike group consisting of the Sao Paulo itself, two Type 42 DDGs for area air defense and ASW duties and then two of their existing Type 22 frigates and two of their existing Niterio class (Type 21) frigates.

If they sent such a group to sea, they would then have a very decent and serious carrier group IMHO.

Sounds a bit like the Argentina or RN of the 1980s with that carrier group obviously replacing in RN case replacing A-4, SuE with Sea harriers and harriers and trackers Sea kings AEW ASW. Brazil main issue is with Escorts as they are old and some have been withdrawn. The Carrier is of questionble usefulness its as old as the hills with roughly 4 airworthy Sky hawks with aircrew who haven't operated on the carrier for at least a year.

I have yet to see a complying reason why for their next vessel they don't go the Helo carrier route because they seem to lack the doctrine (other than the Prestige of being the only Latin American nation with a carrier). It took them till 2000 to even practice carrier strike. Its a crew and Maintenance as hog. The crew for San Paulo could be use to recommission some the the T-22 they have layed out and replace the T-21 with something modern. They still have a Garcia in commission the escorts are more important than the sole carrier if its EEZ protection they are looking for rather than Power Projection

they have a defensive Doctrine I'd have a hard time imaging they going to use it to bomb fellow Latin American nations or any others for that matter.

The Navy of Brazil

Finn McCool

Captain

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master

Jeff Head

General

cmb=1968

Junior Member

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master

Jeff Head

General

Scratch

Captain

Delbert

Junior Member

harryRIEDL

New Member