The Military of Southern Song

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
I've been reading about Yue Fei's battles against the Jin, and the later Mongol successes. Some of the Chinese posters I read are of the opinion that because Song did not have a way to produce horses, their infantry was fundamentally disadvantaged against the Mongol cavalry.

I wonder if that's really the case?

Now I admit that logistically, a cavalry force like the Mongols have a huge advantage. They are far more mobile than infantry, and are able to strike anywhere they please before infantry reinforcements can even arrive.

However, the Song had a far greater manpower, and the cavalry was not invincible on the battlefield even by the technology of the time. The Song had powerful crossbows and even firearms that surely outranged the mongol bows.

What do you think? Did Song fall mainly because of its political situation, or mainly because of its military situation?
 
N

no_name

Colonel
Just my own personal thoughts:

I think the Mongols gained a lot of advantage after conquering Jin, due to siege weapon technology and Chinese commanders that knows siege warfare.

Mongols changed their method after conquest of Jin so that surrendering commanders and their areas of command were spared.

There are quite a bit of Chinese commanders/troops willing to switch allegiance or be bought off. In fact I think the general who wiped out the last Song fleet came from Song Dynasty.

Presence of Chinese commanders and artisans probably means that technology wise, the mongols are not that behind, just that they focus on different aspect of warfare.

Song commanders are defensive and would not go out on the offense like Yue fei, so they were eventually wore down.

Song is economically and technologically advanced and rich in resource, but little means of utilizing them effectively for war.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Look at it this way.

Cavalry provide troops with great mobility. The Song military commanders actually won around 70% of battles against foreign invaders. However they are not able to capitalize on their success. When they fail, however, the results are often catastrophic.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
siegecrossbow said:
Look at it this way.

Cavalry provide troops with great mobility. The Song military commanders actually won around 70% of battles against foreign invaders. However they are not able to capitalize on their success. When they fail, however, the results are often catastrophic.
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Yes, that is the argument. However, it doesn't take into account the huge disparity in resources between the two civilizations. The Song outnumbered the Mongols at least 100 to 1, and pushing north would have taken them into well settled lands. The advantage of cavalry lies mainly in field battles. The infantry of Song could have taken advantage of the existing fortifications of the north, and add their own to it to cut down the maneuvering field of the Mongols. It's a tactic that was espoused by Yuan Chengzhi against the Qing, except that Yuan wanted to do it beyond the Ming borders, where logistics and supply would have been more difficult.

So was it simply because the Song rulers did not think this way?
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
no_name said:
Just my own personal thoughts:

I think the Mongols gained a lot of advantage after conquering Jin, due to siege weapon technology and Chinese commanders that knows siege warfare.

Mongols changed their method after conquest of Jin so that surrendering commanders and their areas of command were spared.

There are quite a bit of Chinese commanders/troops willing to switch allegiance or be bought off. In fact I think the general who wiped out the last Song fleet came from Song Dynasty.

Presence of Chinese commanders and artisans probably means that technology wise, the mongols are not that behind, just that they focus on different aspect of warfare.

Song commanders are defensive and would not go out on the offense like Yue fei, so they were eventually wore down.

Song is economically and technologically advanced and rich in resource, but little means of utilizing them effectively for war.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are right of course, but why didn't the Song push to reclaim their lands when Genghis Khan began attacking the Jin? They just sat there and allowed Mongol troops to conquer the entire northern China.
 
N

no_name

Colonel
solarz said:
Yes, you are right of course, but why didn't the Song push to reclaim their lands when Genghis Khan began attacking the Jin? They just sat there and allowed Mongol troops to conquer the entire northern China.
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Again my personal opinion:

-They didn't expect mongols to be so effective.

-What happened to Yue Fei set a bad precedence and the military and imperial court becomes even more divided.

- They figured that if Jin couldn't take over them, the mongols couldn't do so easily either, and the subsequent fight with mongol was still a long hard one.

-They didn't expect mongols to bypass by going after sichuan first.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
solarz said:
Yes, that is the argument. However, it doesn't take into account the huge disparity in resources between the two civilizations. The Song outnumbered the Mongols at least 100 to 1, and pushing north would have taken them into well settled lands. The advantage of cavalry lies mainly in field battles. The infantry of Song could have taken advantage of the existing fortifications of the north, and add their own to it to cut down the maneuvering field of the Mongols. It's a tactic that was espoused by Yuan Chengzhi against the Qing, except that Yuan wanted to do it beyond the Ming borders, where logistics and supply would have been more difficult.

So was it simply because the Song rulers did not think this way?
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The Mongols and Jurchens have everything to gain by conquering the wealthy Southern China. What does China have to gain by campaigning against the Northern Barbarians???
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
siegecrossbow said:
The Mongols and Jurchens have everything to gain by conquering the wealthy Southern China. What does China have to gain by campaigning against the Northern Barbarians???
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Not being annihilated, for one.

For the other, they wouldn't be campaigning against norther barbarians, they would be campaigning to reclaim their lost territories, including their source of horse production.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
no_name said:
Again my personal opinion:

-They didn't expect mongols to be so effective.

-What happened to Yue Fei set a bad precedence and the military and imperial court becomes even more divided.

- They figured that if Jin couldn't take over them, the mongols couldn't do so easily either, and the subsequent fight with mongol was still a long hard one.

-They didn't expect mongols to bypass by going after sichuan first.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does seem like a certain degree of myopia was involved. Still, Southern Song's repeated reluctance to reclaim its lost lands is rather strange. No matter how effective the Mongols were, they still took time pacifying the Jin. During this time, the Song could easily have sent forth legions and started fortifying.

But then, if the Song had actually done that, would they have been successful? (Assuming leadership by a competent general.)
 
N

no_name

Colonel
I suppose staying down south too long spoils you, like today SK will find it hell of a lot work to rebuild NK.

Also I think we need to see history as written from the view of the elites, rather than the commoner (though they try sound like as if the two equates one another ). We need to ask that if a different ruler, even if one of a different ethnicity takes over, does that really change significantly the life of a normal farmer, especially back in the days where the the world is not as interconnected? Of course, the elites have everything to lose, but they would just have as much to lose to another competitor of the same ethnicity.

Also, the early Yuan were less corrupt than the late S.Song.
 
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