The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
I think it might have been purchased a while ago, and just shown recently. don't know

That is a possibility, Tanzania pilots may have only recently finished training on the new aircraft or a multitude of other reasons but the last known batch IIRC of F-7s was 2009.

Lion said:
J-7S is cheap and easy to operate. Its very cost effective for third world countries defence who don't need datalink, extensive training to operate many advance features(BVRAAM, IFF, ECM)as they don't face superior enemies who possess those features.

Even FC-1 who prove to be cheap may prove difficult for third world countries to quickly operate and master these system.

You are right, and its not only in Africa as well, In Colombia, the government is buying Atlas Cheetahs retired by the SAAF. To an African government, being able to buy a newly built supersonic fighter jet to patrol its borders against other countries operating older but similar aircraft (F-5Es, Mirage IIIs etc. etc.) but the with bonus of a modern short range radar, up to date countermeasures, helmet mounted sights etc. etc. it probably sounds like a good deal.

What I'm more surprised at was the the FC-1 wasn't put forward, since China has been well known for using low interest loans to help poorer countries purchase military equipment. More FC-1 orders mean lower over all unit assembly and production costs which would be great for Chengdu. Training wouldn't really be a factor IMO, while very different aircraft, from what I understand the operation of the FC-1 is not terrible different from the MiG-21 series but I could very well be wrong. Even a single seat JL-9 would be very viable for export as well in the future (not now since such a modified JL-9 would need to be redesigned from the current model, a test aircraft would need to be built and for a proper shakedown flight to be made for anything that drastic is done yet)
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
If the order was fully delivered in 2009, then the contract would have been signed years before then. The FC1 would not have been a realistic option even a few years back.

If a similar tender came up now, of course the JF17 would be put forward (especially since J7 production has stopped).

Although I would not say the JF17 is that similar to the J7. Even the latest J7Gs were realistically just WVR dogfighters. The JF17 not only improved on the agility, but also added modern glass cockpit with BVR and multi-role capability.

A J7G pilot might be able to fly a JF17 well with little extra training, but he would not be able to make use of any of the advanced features without being completely re-trained on BVR tactics and modern avionics etc.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
If the order was fully delivered in 2009, then the contract would have been signed years before then. The FC1 would not have been a realistic option even a few years back.

That would make a lot of sense, signing a contract for more fighters doesn't magically poof aircraft out of thin air. The order was probably done sometime in 2009 and only now the aircraft have been revealed like tphuang suggested.

If a similar tender came up now, of course the JF17 would be put forward (especially since J7 production has stopped).

Although I would not say the JF17 is that similar to the J7. Even the latest J7Gs were realistically just WVR dogfighters. The JF17 not only improved on the agility, but also added modern glass cockpit with BVR and multi-role capability.

A J7G pilot might be able to fly a JF17 well with little extra training, but he would not be able to make use of any of the advanced features without being completely re-trained on BVR tactics and modern avionics etc.

All very valid points, probably a better thing on my part would be that the flying characteristics between the two aircraft, all J-7 derivatives with double delta wings have proven to be very, very agile aircraft after all. What comparative flying characteristics can't teach though is combat and you are very right, any pilot moving up from a J-7 to an FC-1 would need to relearn how combat works and how to use the fighters systems to their full advantage.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Registered Member
That is a possibility, Tanzania pilots may have only recently finished training on the new aircraft or a multitude of other reasons but the last known batch IIRC of F-7s was 2009.



You are right, and its not only in Africa as well, In Colombia, the government is buying Atlas Cheetahs retired by the SAAF. To an African government, being able to buy a newly built supersonic fighter jet to patrol its borders against other countries operating older but similar aircraft (F-5Es, Mirage IIIs etc. etc.) but the with bonus of a modern short range radar, up to date countermeasures, helmet mounted sights etc. etc. it probably sounds like a good deal.

What I'm more surprised at was the the FC-1 wasn't put forward, since China has been well known for using low interest loans to help poorer countries purchase military equipment. More FC-1 orders mean lower over all unit assembly and production costs which would be great for Chengdu. Training wouldn't really be a factor IMO, while very different aircraft, from what I understand the operation of the FC-1 is not terrible different from the MiG-21 series but I could very well be wrong. Even a single seat JL-9 would be very viable for export as well in the future (not now since such a modified JL-9 would need to be redesigned from the current model, a test aircraft would need to be built and for a proper shakedown flight to be made for anything that drastic is done yet)
the last F-7 was around 2008/9 by my recollection too. I do agree with you about JL-9. I think that's the more logical move from F-7. You have something that's far similar to F-7, but with much better avionics. I'm sure the operating cost is comparable or even lower than F-7. My guess is FC-1 is probably a little too expensive and too complex to operate for countries that are satisfied with just flying around F-7s.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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the last F-7 was around 2008/9 by my recollection too. I do agree with you about JL-9. I think that's the more logical move from F-7. You have something that's far similar to F-7, but with much better avionics. I'm sure the operating cost is comparable or even lower than F-7. My guess is FC-1 is probably a little too expensive and too complex to operate for countries that are satisfied with just flying around F-7s.

Yeppp ... and in the end a single seater version would make a lot of sense for such countries ... which would make it de facto a rebirth of the original Super-7. ;)

Deino
 

i.e.

Senior Member
If the order was fully delivered in 2009, then the contract would have been signed years before then. The FC1 would not have been a realistic option even a few years back.

If a similar tender came up now, of course the JF17 would be put forward (especially since J7 production has stopped).

Although I would not say the JF17 is that similar to the J7. Even the latest J7Gs were realistically just WVR dogfighters. The JF17 not only improved on the agility, but also added modern glass cockpit with BVR and multi-role capability.

A J7G pilot might be able to fly a JF17 well with little extra training, but he would not be able to make use of any of the advanced features without being completely re-trained on BVR tactics and modern avionics etc.

Kept wondering why not develope an passive infra-red homing Medium range (30KM) missile along lines of a R-27T, for these smaller but still potent jets that for budget/size reasons can not mount a potent radar thus are denuded of BVR options on other wise a potent platform?
R-27T was able to do it based on old 70s era technology. I would think in this age of DAS, one can do much better.

let's say an SD-10 body chopped down and mated with an liquid nitrogen cooled gimble mounted IRST derived seeker head. also provided with Home-on-Jam capability. datalink capable to beam back pictures.

Let's say a late model J-7E with RD-93 engine with a pair of those bad-boyz on midwing pylons, plus a pair of dogfightin PL-8s on outboard. and mounting a pair of IRST slaved to HMDs to provide sit-aware and cueing + RWR and jammers.

WHo says one needs a big radar to have credible BVR capability? !
no need to emitt anything and still could shoot at you 30 kms away.

This whole package could be had less than 10 million $$$s a ship!

(I am really a sucker for small, cheap, retro but disruptive technologies)
 
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Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
Kept wondering why not develope an passive infra-red homing Medium range (30KM) missile along lines of a R-27T, for these smaller but still potent jets that for budget/size reasons can not mount a potent radar thus are denuded of BVR options on other wise a potent platform?
R-27T was able to do it based on old 70s era technology. I would think in this age of DAS, one can do much better.

let's say an SD-10 body chopped down and mated with an liquid nitrogen cooled gimble mounted IRST derived seeker head. also provided with Home-on-Jam capability. datalink capable to beam back pictures.

Let's say a late model J-7E with RD-93 engine with a pair of those bad-boyz on midwing pylons, plus a pair of dogfightin PL-8s on outboard. and mounting a pair of IRST slaved to HMDs to provide sit-aware and cueing + RWR and jammers.

WHo says one needs a big radar to have credible BVR capability? !
no need to emitt anything and still could shoot at you 30 kms away.

This whole package could be had less than 10 million $$$s a ship!

(I am really a sucker for small, cheap, retro but disruptive technologies)

The idea that China would go BACK to buying engines from Russia like the RD-93 is unlikely. A Turbofan engine for say.... some kind of super... fighter F-7/JL-9 would be ideal but probably not Russia, the WS-13 would be the most likely candidate since the WS-12 and the WP-14 projects as far as I know are dead. OR just another WP-13 derivative for a cost saving option. This is all really speculative though since nobody here has heard a peep from Guizhou or Chengdu about developing a the JL-9 into a fighter ( other than farcical 'LFC-16' proposal from way back in 2002 which we can all safely assume went nowhere)
 

i.e.

Senior Member
The idea that China would go BACK to buying engines from Russia like the RD-93 is unlikely. A Turbofan engine for say.... some kind of super... fighter F-7/JL-9 would be ideal but probably not Russia, the WS-13 would be the most likely candidate since the WS-12 and the WP-14 projects as far as I know are dead. OR just another WP-13 derivative for a cost saving option. This is all really speculative though since nobody here has heard a peep from Guizhou or Chengdu about developing a the JL-9 into a fighter ( other than farcical 'LFC-16' proposal from way back in 2002 which we can all safely assume went nowhere)

Nevermind about the Russian engines, the point is to stuff a modern turbo fan into a small-airframe (mig-21/J-7).

and use EO path as primary detection sensor and weapons.

fighter radars are expensive and requires alot of training and most of time needs AWACS support in this enviornment to be effective anyways. something a poorer 3rd world AF typicall don't have. if you can still have decent BVR capability with out a radar why not ditch the weight and expense to start with?

---

and for richer AFs who needs an low-cost but effective fighter to fill the ranks and in time of war drop bombs, who typically requires their fighter not to turn on their radar in this day and age anyways. going to an complete EO solution would not be bad.

only their top line bigger fighters have big radars that can take advantage of those ridiculously long range on those active radar AAMs.
rest don't really need radar, just rely on size/stealth/ EO and datalinks. but still can shoot a 30 km missile at you.

----
The more I think of it, the requirement sounds more and more like LWF and what Fighter mafia thought was a perfect fighter.
except back then they didn't have such things as prevalence of stealth, good EO equipment, datalinks, and longer range IR-AAMs (not in NATO camp anyways) .
a modernized, stealthy, F-16 sized A/C, without radars, good EO sensors all around,
Something to think about....
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Kept wondering why not develope an passive infra-red homing Medium range (30KM) missile along lines of a R-27T, for these smaller but still potent jets that for budget/size reasons can not mount a potent radar thus are denuded of BVR options on other wise a potent platform?
R-27T was able to do it based on old 70s era technology. I would think in this age of DAS, one can do much better.

let's say an SD-10 body chopped down and mated with an liquid nitrogen cooled gimble mounted IRST derived seeker head. also provided with Home-on-Jam capability. datalink capable to beam back pictures.

Let's say a late model J-7E with RD-93 engine with a pair of those bad-boyz on midwing pylons, plus a pair of dogfightin PL-8s on outboard. and mounting a pair of IRST slaved to HMDs to provide sit-aware and cueing + RWR and jammers.

WHo says one needs a big radar to have credible BVR capability? !
no need to emitt anything and still could shoot at you 30 kms away.

This whole package could be had less than 10 million $$$s a ship!

(I am really a sucker for small, cheap, retro but disruptive technologies)

I think there are a number of issues standing in the way to such a fighter, and your suggestion of a missile is quite separate from the actual fighter.

The most obvious limitation to the J7's lack of effective BVR capabilities is the fact that it does not have the onboard sensors needed to spot enemies far enough away to make BVR missiles worth while. Mounting IR missiles does not suddenly remove that requirement.

If you are thinking of relying on 3rd party targeting, why the fuss with the fancy new missile? You can hang a couple of regular PL12s/SD10s on a J7 and have it act as a launcher if you have other assets ready to take over guidance.

Range and payload will also be an issue. The J7 is a small fighter with short legs. For the best BVR results, you want to be flying fast and high, but that takes up a lot of fuel, so the J7 would be unlikely to have much if any time left to fight in WVR. So you are trading the fighter's greatest strength for a mediocre (at best) BVR capability that is highly reliant on other assets doing the hard part of the job. Not really worth it in my book, especially when there are other platforms far better suited to BVR.

Now, sticking an IRST on the J7 will not really help, as even the best ones in the world do not give you the ranges you need to make best use of BVR, especially head-on. If you were thinking of replacing the radar with a supersized IRST, that might get you enough range in optimal conditions, but you end up with a fighter that is highly dependent on the weather being perfect to do its job. Not good.

Now, onto your IR BVR missile, well that sounds a lot like the IR MICA tbh, and apart from the French, no-one seems all that keen on the idea. The Americans, Russians, Chinese, even the British and Germans never seriously tried to come up with something in the same class even after all these years. That clearly shows a consensus.

I have a feeling the biggest reason for this lack of 'wow' factor comes in the operation of the missile.

On the face of it, a passive BVR missile sounds all kind of win as you are not tipping off the enemy by setting off their RWR.

However, how were you supposed to have located, identified, and targeted an enemy at BVR ranges passively in the first place? If you used your radar to find the enemy, you already tipped your hand and he should be ready even if you doesn't get a lock warning from his RWR.

AESA LPI modes are a very recent development, and with new generation of digital EW suits being fielded or nearing it in an increasing number of countries, it looks increasingly likely that LPI will be a fleeting advantage that will be cancelled out soon in the future. What more, with MAWS becoming ever more common and sophisticated, the days when a passive missile can expect to sneak up on a target seemed numbered as well.

The J7G has become all it can effectively be given the limitations of its airframe. Trying to squeeze more out of the design will only result in spiking costs for modest improvements. That is why CAC effectively started with a new slate with the JF17 instead of carrying out with their original super7 or J7MF concepts to make this plane BVR capable.

Those were old ideas born when China had few if any better alternatives. Now its a very different China, and they have moved on to bigger and better things.
 

no_name

Colonel
Maybe they were intending for the LFC-16 to be a 'poor man's J-10' exporting option back when they were still busy equiping their own forces with J-10, and using russian engine at that, which is in limited number anyway.
 
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