The German Aircraft Carrier Graf Zeppelin

Discussion in 'Military History' started by Jeff Head, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. Jeff Head
    Offline

    Jeff Head General
    Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    24,135
    Likes Received:
    32,431
    In German, Flugdeckkreuzer literally means "Flight Deck Cruiser." A cruiser with a flight deck.

    A more proper translation into English would be, "aircraft carrying cruiser."

    As to it being the root for the "through deck cruisers," I can't say.

    The Japanese used similar considerations for their aerial battleship conversions they did to the Ise battleships after the Battle of Midway.


    [​IMG]

    I found a good description of the conversionof the Ise:

    She was never used in this role however becasue by the time she was completed, launched, trialed, and her aircraft training completed, the Japanese simply did not have enough planes to deploy to her, and what planes they did have went to their other carriers, and finally in defense of the home islands.
     
    #31 Jeff Head, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
  2. delft
    Offline

    delft Brigadier

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    7,230
    Likes Received:
    6,751
    Aircraft carrier development is a fascinating subject. Thank you, Jeff, for the Ise story. I'm pretty sure we are not at the end of the development of new aircraft carrier concepts. Not as bizarre as a 180k catamaran but perhaps a hybrid LPH with a sky ramp for UCAV's.
    I'm well able to read and speak German. From here Germany is just a bike ride away. It seems to me that flight deck cruiser wouldn't appeal to RN types - in what way would it differ from aircraft carrier - but that the rhythm of the German word might have inspired the through deck cruiser appellation.
     
  3. shen
    Offline

    shen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    1,439
    What you described very well was the tactic Nazi Germany was forced to adopt because Z-plan didn't have time to finish. But Z-plan to suppose to build a fleet that can challenge the Royal Navy head on in a Mahanian decisive battle. For which the GZ as well as the Flugdeckkreuzer (which was actually laid down) would be ill-suited.
    long wiki article about Admiral Raeder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Raeder
    not sure how accurate it is, but that guy sounds just as crazy as the Fuehrer, just differently.
     
    #33 shen, Oct 31, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  4. Equation
    Offline

    Equation Lieutenant General

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,128
    Likes Received:
    13,895
    I doubt whatever fleet the Germans build could really challenge the Royal Navy at the time. They just simply don't have the oil or access to it like the UK can. You can build all the planes, tanks, and ships you want, but without sufficient supply of oil for fuel, those machines would be useless.
     
  5. Lezt
    Offline

    Lezt Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    237
    The royal navy of ww2 is a potent but still a shadow of itself at the turn of the century. had german rearmament been complete, she could have seriously challenged the RN. Especially the KGVs are constrained by Washington, while the Bismarks are not.

    Then you throw into the equation the newer German FAC crafts... Just imagine E-boats with Fritz-X....
     
  6. Equation
    Offline

    Equation Lieutenant General

    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,128
    Likes Received:
    13,895
    Yes as far as weapons comparison in ship to ship, the Germans can challenge the RN if they were completely rearmed. Still the UK has the bigger economy and better access to materials and fuel for rearming and rebuilding their navy. They don't necessarily have to do it all on the UK isle as well, they can manufacture a lot of in in India, South Africa, Canada, some to Australia or even to the US. Meanwhile, the Germans didn't have that luxury as they are still facing harsh economic punishments for WW1.
     
  7. shen
    Offline

    shen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    1,439
    I agree the Germans didn't the economy to build and fuel a fleet powerful enough to challenge the Royal Navy head on, but Raeder didn't care. He just wanted his dream navy. Unlike the hardcore Nazis who really wanted to kill Slavs to the east, the German navy guys like Raeder really hated the British and Americans. They were hellbent on building a powerful fleet to fight the Anglo. So Z-plan with 10 battleships, 4 aircraft carriers, 15 Panzerschiffe, 5 heavy cruisers, 44 light cruisers, 68 destroyers and 249 U-boats, probably was enough to fight the Royal Navy. But that wasn't enough for Raeder, in 1940 he proposed an expanded Plan Z fleet of 80 battleships, 15-20 carriers, 100 heavy cruisers, 115 light cruisers, 500 U-boats, and 250 destroyers. Crazeeeee!!!!!
     
  8. shen
    Offline

    shen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    1,439
    The treaty constrained KGVs were still better armored than the Bismark. Okay, in hindsight, the new 14" turret was a bad idea. The RN would've been better off with the old 15" double turret like the Vanguard class. The Bismark was a very inefficient design for its weight class.
    E-boats with Fritz-X? how is that going to work?
     
  9. thunderchief
    Offline

    thunderchief Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    1,736
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Germany was getting oil from Romania and also synthesizing some , so they were not that oil starved until they lost Ploesti oil fields and Allies bombed oil synthesizing plants late in the war . But there was more to it :

    When the war broke out in 1939. , there was an arms race going on , but neither of participants was completely rearmed and prepared ( Germany , Italy , France , UK , Soviet Union ... ) . When Hitler invaded Poland he was secretly hoping that Britain & France would not intervene (although there were contingency measures employed) . But Britain&France did declare war and part of their reasoning was probably that ratio of forces is more in their favor now then in let's say two years .

    In the end , it all went as it went , it is difficult to predict what would have happened if war was delayed . Note that at said time there were lot of technological breakthroughs , so even newly built equipment would become obsolete in few years (tanks , airplanes etc ... )
     
  10. Lezt
    Offline

    Lezt Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    237
    Well armored is a subjective term,

    if you look at the sinking of the prince of wales and the repulse, versus the sinking of the Bismark

    Bismark sunk with 4 torpedo hits and more than 400 shell hits, POW sank with 4 torpedo hits. Which only suggests that the armor scheme on the bismark is quite durable even if it is thin on paper.

    Every country was constraint by the times they were in, the Bismark was supposed to get triple gun turrets, the KGV was supposed to get 3 quad turret. But when you talk about efficient... efficiency is generally the reverse of durability. had a shell stuck and jam/destroy a turret, a 3,3,3 design like the Iowa would lose 33% of it's firepower, a 2,2,2,2 design like the bismark would lose 25%. the Fuso.. with a 2,2,2,2,2,2 will only lose 16.6% of it's firepower.

    How an E-boat work with the Frit-X? look at the soviet Komar class. The fritz-X was not as advanced yet, but it technically is a beam riding missile, except the operator controls the missle onto the beam. technically, if the operator can keep the crosshair on target untill the missle hits, that is all that is needed
     
Loading...

Share This Page