The Boxer Rebellion 1900-01

Schumacher

Senior Member
.............From memory I think the author claims (with evidence) that the Americans did try to get the Indonesians to stop the slaughter through diplomatic pressure.
....................

I doubt there's any evidence other than perhaps lip service by the Americans.
The Americans had no qualms about directly killing millions themselves in Indochina in their war against communism about the same time as the Indonesian massacre. Why would they lift a finger to stop it when they had others doing the killing for them in Indonesia ?
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
REality? Lets draw some parallels within the context of this debate.very briefly

1/ China currently has Tibet through force of arms in much the same way the West got China in the 19th century
2/ It is forcing its beliefs onto the Tibeteans in much the same way as the west did on China with the Christians etc
3/ The Tibeteans opposed the Chinese presence and way of doing things hence 2008. China showed its distaste for the West presence and ideals by way of the Boxer reveloution
4/Both were brutally put down

WTF? A "freedom fighter"? A GENUINE "freedom fighter" I actually met?

The Mods showed his attituede so I am not gonna say anything here. When the ONLY THING a freedom fighter can do is blah blah blah... I found it is simply entertaining to read more.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Deja vu. Heard that before when you can't think of anything to defend your logic. Who was the one caught resorting to lying about an invasion of Chinese chicken exports invading the US. Again if you were so right, you wouldn't have to lie would you?

The master of disingenuous interpretation while under bouts of paranoia is all you have demonstrated.
Here is the post from the economics thread in which i was discussing the WTO and Japans protectionist rice policy
" Post 1351I forgot which country it was that made an issue about it, but around about the Clinton presidency Japan was made to allow imported rice, but it was set at 8%? of internal consumption/ or domestic production, Ive forgotten which.
But my main point is, thats its very different to the unlimited amount of chicken China can export to the U.S."
Considering the just released decision by the WTO did not mention of any restriction, then it was fair enough for me to phrase my statement in such a manner when making the said comparison.
I am not going to waste anymore time discussing this point
By the way its you whose making things up with your statements concerning genocide in Indonesia.
""Or how about in 1965 where the US and Australian backed Indonesian government masscred 500,000 to a million Chinese in less than a month. In that situation US pressure was used to "influence" Indonesia to deal with its communist problem pushing them to just kill anyone who was chinese"

Its quite clear that you have taken a number which suits your purposes in sensationalizing the tragedy 0f 1965. whose telling lies now? and where did you get your info from .. comic books? as credible sources will, prior to giving out numbers , point out that no one really knows the numbers and ethnic make up of the deaths which certainly wer'ent all Chinese, and at best should be treated as estimates only as no one from the West/or reliable was counting. Meanwhile the Indonesian sources claim a number under 100,000 all told.
You can read on in my replies in the following posts.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Quoting out of context? Now you're just trolling.

.Unless youve forgotten A Mace raised the question of the genocide in Indonesia. it in the Egyptian crisis thread in which you also added a comment. At the time I had some doubt about his statement at the time but let it pass Nor was it ever my intention to draw parallels between the Indonesian and Boxer topics. I'm merely confirming Hendriks statement so that I can point out a variance of views.
For instance in the Egyptian Crisis thread post 97 A Mace says

"
In the massacre in 1965, the people killed were mostly those have been living there since before communism in China. So make all your hypocritical excuses all you want........ Fact is the tension betweeen the Chinese and Indonesians was all the fault of the British"

differing to what Wiki as well as Hendrik2000 suggested " That is the reason why they are hated because they are considered as comprador to the Dutch"

and his post 88 in the same thread which is nothing but a Grosley misleading statement.

"Or how about in 1965 where the US and Australian backed Indonesian government masscred 500,000 to a million Chinese in less than a month. In that situation US pressure was used to "influence" Indonesia to deal with its communist problem pushing them to just kill anyone who was chinese"


Its quite clear that hes taken a number and present it as the truth to sensationalize the tragedy 0f 1965. He conveniently leaves out a point that most creditable sources point out prior to giving out numbers , "no one really knows the numbers and ethnic make up of the deaths which certainly wer'ent all Chinese and at best should be treated as estimates only as no one from the West/or reliable was counting.
"

Meanwhile some people point to The Suharto Govt claims of only around 87-90000 were killed.as being the true number wiki suggests
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
The killings have been largely omitted from Indonesian history textbooks, which depicted the killings as a "patriotic campaign" that resulted in less than 80,000 deaths
Meanwhile the extreme left sources claim up to 2 million were killed.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"The fact is most people killed in 1965/66, and the total number ranges anywhere from several hundred thousands to two million, take your pick, were not Chinese, they were poor, landless, or seen to be squatting, Javanese Muslims. It was a kind of jihad, but one not directed at Chinese, least of all Buddhists, but largely at non-orthodox, non-devout, Muslims, generally the “abangan” social group."

Meanwhile this for the truely interested is worth taking a look at
"Report from East Java", available for viewing at Cornell (PDF).
A separate post that touches on this subject is East Java Pogroms.

It gives a rather vivid report by Indonesia sources as their militia/security/miltary set about their gruesome task. It is worth noting that their daily reports refer to spontaneous killings at grass root level or hate killings as a result of decades of resentment for the Chinese

What can I conclude from this? A mace is only interested in the numbers for Chinese deaths and ignore the balance as he wants to see it. Therefore all his puffery about genocide is nothing but an act.

Did the indo-Chinese enjoy extra-territoriality? Were they immune from punishment even if they did murder and rape? The Westerners in China did. And so did any bandit who joined the Church.

Well acting as compradors for the Dutch they certainly enjoyed a better life than the indigenous people and they go to accumulate a great deal of wealth at their expense as well
and the below link certainly highlights the privileges /advantages they obtained over the indigenous peoples
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Funny how your ilk always ignore that "little" detail.

oh dear, I thought you were well read enough, that a vague hint about Tibet would be enough and thus avoid the need to have to go into gruesome details. Heres a couple anyway

Straight from the BBC a few yrs back
"British filmmakers have emerged from three months undercover in Tibet to release a terrifying portrayal of Chinese repression, including shootings, torture and the brutal sterilisation of women left maimed by crude operations.

Their film, to be shown tomorrow night as part of Channel 4's Dispatches series, was made before the recent outbreak of anti-Chinese rioting in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa.

But with hundreds of jailed Tibetan protesters now in fear for their lives, the harrowing footage will add to the storm of condemnation gathering ahead of the Beijing Olympics this year.

The documentary's investigation began with the notorious 2006 shootings on the Nangpa La pass, when unarmed Tibetans trying to leave the country were gunned down by Chinese border guards.

Two Tibetans were killed and 32 detained, interrogated and then sent to a labour camp 150 miles from Lhasa.

The experiences of one of those held, Jamyang Samten, now 16, gives a clue to the fate of Tibetan protesters now in the hands of the Chinese police.

He told the programme makers he was given electric shocks with a cattle prod, chained to a wall and hit in the stomach by a guard wearing a metal glove.


If he made a minor mistake in his interrogation, he would be beaten with a chain.

"The way the Chinese tortured was terrifying," he said.

"They beat us using their full strength. Sometimes they forced us to take off our clothes. We were locked up in a room with our arms and legs handcuffed and they beat us. The chain injured the surface but not the inside of the body.

"If they hit us with the electric baton, our entire body trembled and gradually we were unable to speak."

Jamyang was eventually released and finally made it over the border to Kathmandu in Nepal after paying a guide the equivalent of £210.

Tibetan women are also forcibly prevented from having children, despite supposedly being exempt from China's strict birth-control laws, the film's director Jezza Neumann discovered.

Measures include monitoring menstrual cycles, forced abortions and sterilisation if women cannot afford a fine for having a second child.
One woman, a married farmer, described her agony at a forced sterilisation operation without anaesthetic.

She could not afford the fine, equivalent to £70, and was one of six in her village who went through the ordeal.

"I was forcibly taken away against my will. I was feeling sick and giddy and couldn't look up," she said."
Not quite like the Boxer period I admit, but then again "different crimes for different times"
and how about the shooting of those Tibeteans that was caught on film

Did the "Peoples Daily make any comment on the matter. like,.....

"The PLA regretfully report that after carefully linning up their targets, our glorious soldiers trigger fingers accidentally slipped and consequently a young girl who was fleeing from us ,was shot in the back".

Although this is only one incidence that was caught on film, there's always the possibility these things have been going since occupation and still are, the numbers might easily exceed the 5000 the Americans marked down for an untimely death in Indonesia.
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
GOSH what a shellacking you guys have been giving the Americans lately despite the fact that the world owes them a lot. How a bit of time out to pay tribute to the American solider,
I Reckon.

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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I doubt there's any evidence other than perhaps lip service by the Americans.
The Americans had no qualms about directly killing millions themselves in Indochina in their war against communism about the same time as the Indonesian massacre. Why would they lift a finger to stop it when they had others doing the killing for them in Indonesia ?


The Americans have done some shameful things but IMO they have earn't more pluses then minuses as theyve gone about preserving the peace.
RE Americans involvement in Indonesia.

John Pilger a Australian Columist who is as anti american as you can get writes
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In 1990, the American investigative journalist Kathy Kadane revealed the extent of secret US collaboration in the massacres of 1965/66 that toppled Sukarno and brought to power Suharto, who at the time was little known outside western intelligence circles. In a series of interviews with former US officials, she concluded, "They systematically compiled comprehensive lists of communist operatives. As many as 5,000 names were furnished to the Indonesian army, and the Americans later checked off the names of those who had been killed or captured."

You can bet that if Pilger could have raised that figured of 5000 he would have.So can it not be considered that the Americans honestly thought that maybe a portion of the 5000 would meet an untimely death while the rest would be doing jail time?

Those extra deaths could be put down to
Horizontal-Spontaneous Conflict. rather than any planned design by the America and Australia
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"Sulistyo, Sudjatmiko and Geertz are the proponent of "horizontal theory". There seems to be no dissimilarity between their conclusions and the official version released by the government of Indonesia. The Army Information Centre (PUSPENAD), which launched its report a year after the coup took place, suggested that the mass anger could not be controlled. [1] Likewise, twenty years later, the Indonesian State Secretary used the term, "spontaneous mass action against the PKI" to describe the ferocity of the event." [2] .....................


or prompted by stories of a eminent threat This was the response directed at Julia Surykusuma article by some "redneck". IT was essentially about whether there was a genocide in 1965 and what happened to the survivors. (However I the server gives a negative response to the link, so I guess it must be deleted, though i have kept some pages of the arguement)
"Wednesday's Jakarta Post saw yet another effusion of pinko propaganda from their comely but carping columnist Julia Suryakusuma.
She has long been a source of tiresome lefty whines, which is a pity because she is not without intellect and occasional humour, but this week she has climbed aboard the seemingly imminent Suharto hearse to bang on again about the Reds who got whacked back in 1965.............. In 1965 the 100,000 guns that Air Marshal Dhani was busily preparing to bring in from Red China ( I have read of that claim in our own newspaper articles) were perhaps on order for hunting wild animals, in Julia's fevered mind, and the Gerwani vixens and Pemuda Rakyat thugs training under military instruction out by Halim were just enjoying some calisthenics. Sure, Julia, cover up the evil as you please."

Or pehaps we could actually blame Suharto. , . He was a two bit general who was scheming to take over from Sukarno. By instituting a racial crisis he could cement his hold on power. His actions after 1965 indicate that he was more than capable of doing such a thing
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"After the upheaval following the Soeharto coup in 1965, he set about isolating and officially discriminating against the Chinese. Group divisions such as the Cina Baba, Qiao Sheng andCina Totok were blurred because Soeharto treated them exactly the same. They were all forced to change their names to Indonesian-sounding ones (Nowadays, many prefer Western-sounding first names, so you'll see many named Tony and Rudi or Agnes and Anastasia...). This law was considered most humiliating to those in the Chinese community since by doing so, they were forced to relinquish their family names, which may be, in some cases, traced back thousands of years. Between 1965 and into the 1980s, army and police officers were given a green light to abuse and extort Chinese-Indonesians, including openly robbing or raping. During this time, police could arrest anybody speaking Chinese. Various government policies banned Chinese-language teaching, speaking and publications.
Established schools and colleges run by Chinese-Indonesian foundations were seized by the government without compensation. Anti-Chinese sentiment increased among thepribumi Indonesians and anti-Chinese pogroms were frequent. In identity cards, all Chinese-Indonesians are still designated as "ethnic Chinese" (by using a 9 at the end of their ID number) as opposed to just "Indonesian" for other citizens of the country. This made it easy for officials to identify them and extract bribes, and has been compared to 1930s-40s Germany when the Jewish population, as ordered by Adolf Hitler, was ordered to display a yellow Star of David patch at all times. Ethnic Chinese still are required to carry certificates that prove they have rejected Communist China, despite being born in Indonesia and descended from a family that has called Indonesia home for hundreds of years."
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
.Unless youve forgotten A Mace raised the question of the genocide in Indonesia. it in the Egyptian crisis thread in which you also added a comment. At the time I had some doubt about his statement at the time but let it pass Nor was it ever my intention to draw parallels between the Indonesian and Boxer topics. I'm merely confirming Hendriks statement so that I can point out a variance of views.
For instance in the Egyptian Crisis thread post 97 A Mace says

"

differing to what Wiki as well as Hendrik2000 suggested " That is the reason why they are hated because they are considered as comprador to the Dutch"

and his post 88 in the same thread which is nothing but a Grosley misleading statement.




Its quite clear that hes taken a number and present it as the truth to sensationalize the tragedy 0f 1965. He conveniently leaves out a point that most creditable sources point out prior to giving out numbers , "no one really knows the numbers and ethnic make up of the deaths which certainly wer'ent all Chinese and at best should be treated as estimates only as no one from the West/or reliable was counting.
"

Meanwhile some people point to The Suharto Govt claims of only around 87-90000 were killed.as being the true number wiki suggests
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
The killings have been largely omitted from Indonesian history textbooks, which depicted the killings as a "patriotic campaign" that resulted in less than 80,000 deaths
Meanwhile the extreme left sources claim up to 2 million were killed.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"The fact is most people killed in 1965/66, and the total number ranges anywhere from several hundred thousands to two million, take your pick, were not Chinese, they were poor, landless, or seen to be squatting, Javanese Muslims. It was a kind of jihad, but one not directed at Chinese, least of all Buddhists, but largely at non-orthodox, non-devout, Muslims, generally the “abangan” social group."

Meanwhile this for the truely interested is worth taking a look at
"Report from East Java", available for viewing at Cornell (PDF).
A separate post that touches on this subject is East Java Pogroms.

It gives a rather vivid report by Indonesia sources as their militia/security/miltary set about their gruesome task. It is worth noting that their daily reports refer to spontaneous killings at grass root level or hate killings as a result of decades of resentment for the Chinese

What can I conclude from this? A mace is only interested in the numbers for Chinese deaths and ignore the balance as he wants to see it. Therefore all his puffery about genocide is nothing but an act.



Well acting as compradors for the Dutch they certainly enjoyed a better life than the indigenous people and they go to accumulate a great deal of wealth at their expense as well
and the below link certainly highlights the privileges /advantages they obtained over the indigenous peoples
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




oh dear, I thought you were well read enough, that a vague hint about Tibet would be enough and thus avoid the need to have to go into gruesome details. Heres a couple anyway

Straight from the BBC a few yrs back
"British filmmakers have emerged from three months undercover in Tibet to release a terrifying portrayal of Chinese repression, including shootings, torture and the brutal sterilisation of women left maimed by crude operations.

Their film, to be shown tomorrow night as part of Channel 4's Dispatches series, was made before the recent outbreak of anti-Chinese rioting in the Tibetan capital, Lhasa.

But with hundreds of jailed Tibetan protesters now in fear for their lives, the harrowing footage will add to the storm of condemnation gathering ahead of the Beijing Olympics this year.

The documentary's investigation began with the notorious 2006 shootings on the Nangpa La pass, when unarmed Tibetans trying to leave the country were gunned down by Chinese border guards.

Two Tibetans were killed and 32 detained, interrogated and then sent to a labour camp 150 miles from Lhasa.

The experiences of one of those held, Jamyang Samten, now 16, gives a clue to the fate of Tibetan protesters now in the hands of the Chinese police.

He told the programme makers he was given electric shocks with a cattle prod, chained to a wall and hit in the stomach by a guard wearing a metal glove.


If he made a minor mistake in his interrogation, he would be beaten with a chain.

"The way the Chinese tortured was terrifying," he said.

"They beat us using their full strength. Sometimes they forced us to take off our clothes. We were locked up in a room with our arms and legs handcuffed and they beat us. The chain injured the surface but not the inside of the body.

"If they hit us with the electric baton, our entire body trembled and gradually we were unable to speak."

Jamyang was eventually released and finally made it over the border to Kathmandu in Nepal after paying a guide the equivalent of £210.

Tibetan women are also forcibly prevented from having children, despite supposedly being exempt from China's strict birth-control laws, the film's director Jezza Neumann discovered.

Measures include monitoring menstrual cycles, forced abortions and sterilisation if women cannot afford a fine for having a second child.
One woman, a married farmer, described her agony at a forced sterilisation operation without anaesthetic.

She could not afford the fine, equivalent to £70, and was one of six in her village who went through the ordeal.

"I was forcibly taken away against my will. I was feeling sick and giddy and couldn't look up," she said."
Not quite like the Boxer period I admit, but then again "different crimes for different times"
and how about the shooting of those Tibeteans that was caught on film

Did the "Peoples Daily make any comment on the matter. like,.....

"The PLA regretfully report that after carefully linning up their targets, our glorious soldiers trigger fingers accidentally slipped and consequently a young girl who was fleeing from us ,was shot in the back".

Although this is only one incidence that was caught on film, there's always the possibility these things have been going since occupation and still are, the numbers might easily exceed the 5000 the Americans marked down for an untimely death in Indonesia.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not that I don't believe that, but... wouldnt' the mainstream media have picked up on this at the time and given massive ammunition to the pro tibetan camp? The fact that we haven't heard very much about this says something to me about its authenticity...? (Not that I don't trust the BBC -- but I wouldn't put it past them to get these things wrong considering all the other news agencies who put up misleading if not outright false information leading up to the olympics)

----------

This thread's turned into a racial and historical "who did worse to who" argument... But it's interesting that bladerunner's arguing for the anti-chinese side while being an ethnic chinese himself (I don't put this against you in anyway, of coruse). It's amazing how where and when you grow up can influence such drastically different views even in full face of a supposed free society with access to all the information you want via the internet.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I don't recall uttering "genocide" in Indonesia in these discussions. I know bladerunner has used it to be dramatic against China many times in the past so he shouldn't point his finger crying, "He started it first!". I don't think what happened in Indonesia means the wipeout of the Chinese in the world so why would I use it unless I was playing with words others were abusing to be drama queens. I did use "massacre." Now someone is making up quotes or taking them out of context... on purpose. Are we surprised?
 
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ToxSic

New Member
...
But it's interesting that bladerunner's arguing for the anti-chinese side while being an ethnic chinese himself (I don't put this against you in anyway, of coruse). It's amazing how where and when you grow up can influence such drastically different views even in full face of a supposed free society with access to all the information you want via the internet.

No... it really is not that interesting and certainly not surprising.
Ethnicity (for the most part now days) doesn't dictate who you are loyal to and/or who (or what) you trust, what you believe (I mean religion and/philosophy, etc.). ~More along the lines of the people (including your parents) and environment around you and what you choose to 'be' around you.

But seriously... from Boxer Rebellion ... now to Indonesia and Tibet?:confused:
Are we changing the title to something like 'World Massacres' or something soon?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
No... it really is not that interesting and certainly not surprising.
Ethnicity (for the most part now days) doesn't dictate who you are loyal to and/or who (or what) you trust, what you believe (I mean religion and/philosophy, etc.). ~More along the lines of the people (including your parents) and environment around you and what you choose to 'be' around you.

But seriously... from Boxer Rebellion ... now to Indonesia and Tibet?:confused:
Are we changing the title to something like 'World Massacres' or something soon?

Well it's not surprising but it's certainly interesting and a bit dissapointing in some cases.

I blame the media. :p
 
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