The best round for modern warfare...?

I've been doing a lot of research lately about the different calibres and ammo types in service with armed forces around the world to see if I can determine which one has the best overall caracteristics and fits better with modern warfare requirements. Unortunately I couldn't even come close to making a final choice.

Unlike a gun that must fit with the morphology and the physiological caracteristics of the shooter, a bullet's caracteristics must fit with those of the target, which is, in this case, the average human body. Along with some other parameters, like the distance or range, the protection of the target (Kevlar helmet, body armor), the ballistic performance, etc... that must be determined.

I thought that should be easy to pick the round combining the best caracteristics, but I was wrong.

Every cartridge features some good performances. For example, the russian 7,62 can penetrate a Kevlar helmet at range greater than 300 m and go through a brick wall at close range, but the 5,56 NATO round inflicts greater damage by rotating inside the body and making a big nasty hole. And so on. And every round type has it's own fanatic supporters that say "it's the best of them all". Obviously you cannot have the best range AND the greatest lethality AND the best penetration ...unless you carry something more like an AA gun than an assault rifle.

And there are also some "bullet of the future" types; although I am still sceptic about the ultra small calibre rounds combined with 3-round bursts, and I beleive that flechette (dart) rounds is bullshit, being deflected by rain or leafs!

So I said I should try to settle this matter in a scientific way, with the help of some guys that have real shooting and field experience.

So here we go.

I suggest we proceed step by step, by answering the following questions :

1- According to most recent analysis, what is the average range of a gunfight in modern warfare (including urban warfare)?

2- What is the maximal range at which a soldier can differentiate friend from foe with no additional optics (Daylight and full moon light)?

3- What is the maximal range at which an average soldier with no sharpshooter training can accurately take down a target, with optical sights?

Then we shall evaluate the effectiveness of different rounds at these ranges against soft or hardened targets. But first things first.

Well I can do my part...(by the way, I deleted this same post from the FAQ thread, It's best to deal this subject in it's own thread

I've only fired with finnish RK62 which is our own version of the AKM tough with major differences. Also as a artillerist, our infantry training was quite minimal, tough we did learn something...

So here's my best awnsers, I hope others will fill the blanks..

1- According to most recent analysis, what is the average range of a gunfight in modern warfare (including urban warfare)?

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Depends where you are. Here in finland the fightings would most likely happen in woods and terrain with very short lines of fire so I'd say 150-300 meters max.

2- What is the maximal range at which a soldier can differentiate friend from foe with no additional optics (Daylight and full moon light)?

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In daylight it's pretty much 100-150 meters. Behind that its very difficoult to see details and thus making solid recocnitions. In midnisght's moonlight, its 20-30 meters maxium, tough in wintertime snowdresses makes the recocnition very hard so it's more like 1 meter. In pit black night the effect is pretty much the same...That's why there are paswords and combatcodes...if the closing person fails to awnser, it most likely enemy...

3- What is the maximal range at which an average soldier with no sharpshooter training can accurately take down a target, with optical sights?

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This is harder bit for me, as I've enver fired a sniper rifle, and also i'm active sports shooter so my shooting skills are (without any selfindulgement ) better than average...

Shahid said:

I suggest we proceed step by step, by answering the following questions :

1- According to most recent analysis, what is the average range of a gunfight in modern warfare (including urban warfare)?

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On standard European terrain average range is 200-300m, in urban environment up to 100m… Naturally this depends on terrain…

Shahid said:

2- What is the maximal range at which a soldier can differentiate friend from foe with no additional optics (Daylight and full moon light)?

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Golly pretty much covered that…

Shahid said:

3- What is the maximal range at which an average soldier with no sharpshooter training can accurately take down a target, with optical sights?

Then we shall evaluate the effectiveness of different rounds at these ranges against soft or hardened targets. But first things first.

Click to expand...

Well like Golly said this is difficult question… Whit standard sight on AK I was able to hit targets up to 250m… I didn’t use optic sights while in service but I had opportunity to shot from standard issue sniper rifle before and managed to hit target at 700m… I guess that whit few shoots any soldier would manage to do the same…

Great, that's a good begining.

Is there anybody that wants to contest these informations? Or should I take it as definitive?

Believe me, in the desert even if you can see as far as your sights go, you cannot differentiate between a man and a goat if it is farther than 200 m, with the hot air moving like water and the sun burning your eyes. You only see something is moving.

Does anybody seriously think that a regular soldier can take down a target with his standard AR at a range above 200-250 m, even with a scope?

Does anybody seriously think that a regular soldier can take down a target with his standard AR at a range above 200-250 m, even with a scope?

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In one of our live firing execise we where positioned in billboxes and shoot these janter type of targets. The furthest where about 300-350 meters away and I didn't even try to shoot them, it would have been waste of ammo. But I heard someone managed to down one of the targets at that distance but it was pure luck...

But the thing is you don't go shooting targets that you might hit...If you spot a figure in 300 meters range (you still cannot know wheter its enemy or not) you should not fire as you most likely miss and you blow your own and propaply your accompanies cover. When a enemy troops tryes to ampush your fire position (the most likely gunfight that we artillerist would face) in the ideal conditions where we all have managed to man the posts, you are allowed to open fire only at the squadleaders command (he fires the first round) and if he has the nerves, he will let the enemy come as close as possiple to maximize the effect of groupfiring...If and when the enemy retreats, you can try those 300 meters shots if there is a clear line of fire...

But I doupt anyone can contest what me and Isthvan has said, only complete it, Utelore and Rommel could add great deal...(if the buggers manages to drag their arse over here... )

So if in brief :

-The average range for an occasional and "instinctive" target acquisition and engagement would be 100-150m in open terrain, daylight, and something like 20-100m in urban war or low visibility situation (at your own risk).
-You cannot even dream to take down an enemy soldier above 250-300m even with a scope on your AR (without sharpshooter training... or being blessed by god.)

So we should not even care about the ballistic of a bullet above 300m.

Now the second point :

-At what range is the full-auto mode of an AR accurate, in long bursts? I mean; Can you place multiple shots at an enemy at a range of approximatively 100m, or do you need to incapacitate him with one shot?

Well I think in assault rifles case the distances over 300 meters are irrelevant to the ammunitions performances, so i think you are in right tracks.

You cannot even dream to take down an enemy soldier above 250-300m even with a scope on your AR (without sharpshooter training... or being blessed by god.)

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With a scope that is possiple, but then again normal soldiers are not issued with scopes so we should concerate on the optical sights (disgluding the rifles with build in scope like the AUG)

At what range is the full-auto mode of an AR accurate, in long bursts? I mean; Can you place multiple shots at an enemy at a range of approximatively 100m, or do you need to incapacitate him with one shot?

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Depends formt the shooting position. If you lay down and can hold the clip to the ground then it could be possiple to fire multible hits in 100m with full-auto (rapid fire), But uneccecerical. You hit far more accurately when using the singlefire mode and you can achive quite fast rate of fire with this mode alone and still keep the firing at hands. Our trainers constantly told us that we are no US army, we cannot affoard lots of bullets so the full-auto mode was basicly forbidden form us. It's most usefull in suprize situations and with very low distances, like when enmy is storming to your positions with several mens at distance bellow 50 meters...It's more of a morale support that you have the ability. But I think this may be the matter that is different in other militarier, but least in here the main mode of fire is the single shots.

Shahid said:

So if in brief :

-The average range for an occasional and "instinctive" target acquisition and engagement would be 100-150m in open terrain, daylight, and something like 20-100m in urban war or low visibility situation (at your own risk).
-You cannot even dream to take down an enemy soldier above 250-300m even with a scope on your AR (without sharpshooter training... or being blessed by god.)

Click to expand...

Well whit scope I don’t see any problems whit hitting target at that distance… Even without sharpshooter training…

Shahid said:

So we should not even care about the ballistic of a bullet above 300m.

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Basically yes but like I said this depend on terrain…

Shahid said:

Now the second point :

-At what range is the full-auto mode of an AR accurate, in long bursts? I mean; Can you place multiple shots at an enemy at a range of approximatively 100m, or do you need to incapacitate him with one shot?

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Well in my experience full auto is always waste of ammo… Short burst works much better, you have better accuracy… As for one shot question we were told to fire 2-3 bullets in target… Better safe then sorry…

A very interesting discussion here guys

Ok i have a few silly questions of my own if they are out of context please feel free to kick em out of this thread

1)Are handguns more difficult to be accurate with than Rifles??

2)What is the best way to co-ordinate trigger and grip control to avoid jerking/flinching which adevrsely affects accuracy? (i just started shooting from a hand gun and i suck at 5 yards :rofl: )

Any good reading links regarding handgun use would be appreciated.

I think I forgot a point :

-In real fightiong situation, with all the stress and pressure being putt on the shooter, to what extend do you think we should cut down the above determined range of effective engagement?

I would like to have the advice of some guys with real gunfight experience here.

-And for the burst question, can you shoot the target at long range multiple times before it falls or dropes to the ground? Isn't it necessary to take it down with a single shot? (This is do determine the minimal lethality of a bullet.)