Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Taiwan Army has a requirement for two to four battalions of surplus US Army M1A1/M1A2 main battle tanks, but this is still in programming stages. The M1s are needed to replace 50-ton M48/M60 Patton tanks, but tanks are not given a high priority with Taiwan's mountainous interior and low coastal wetlands. Bridges are also a problem as many in the rural areas are too weak after years of earthquakes to handle the 60-ton M1 tank.

In addition, the military continually gives up more land for commercial and civilian use. The Army has only one artillery range in operation and politicians are being pressured to shut it down. For these reason, the acquisition of M1s could face resistance in Taiwan's legislature.
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Taiwan buying Abrams Tanks has been floating for a Long time but with no actual buys, I think there are a few reasons for that. 1) the Abrams is a Antitank Tank. It is a tank based around the Idea of killing enemy tanks more then operating in a support role. this has caused some like "BlackTail Defence" who makes memes and Videos blasting Abrams, Styker and Bradley as hunks of Junk and waste.
Abrams can be reconfigured in theory to a more flexible tank but the mindset that created it was to kill enemy vehicles across European Plains and Desert dunes. by moving at a fast rate of speed and engaging enemy Cavalry formations.
Taiwan is not a nation needing that It's Tank formations need to move across the smaller land mass of Taiwan. that needs to move across the bridges and land formations of the island target engage invaders and vanish.
2) Despite being a Abrams fan I have to admit Abrams is a gas hog. Even for tanks it drinks more fuel then most. For A island nation that can be a killer, it's a Specialized tool for a special kind of Army. And even as I Type this that Army and Tank needs to change to meet new needs.

Personally I Think this is likely to be Controversial but if there was a tank better suited in my mind to the Armed forces of the ROC It is the Mitsubishi Heavy industries Type 10 Tank. It's light weight, large gun ( for a tank of it's weight, with previsions for larger 50 and 55 caliber guns) Small size and suspension with speed I see as advantages that would better suit the Taiwanese then the Abrams.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Bltizo said:
OT, but this is something I've been meaning to ask; maybe move this post to the US military thread:

Jeff, do you know of any resources that describe the composition and arrangement of the USN's DESRONs through their fleets? In particular, the DESRONs of 3rd and 7th fleets, AKA pacific fleet.

The way I understand it, DESRONs are typically assigned to particular CSGs as escorts, and each DESRON is made up of something like 8 Burke DDGs and/or a smaller number of Burkes + a number of OHP FFGs, and CSGs will also have a Tico CG as an escort as well but CGs are not included in DESRONs?

7th fleet features CSG 5 and DESRON 15 as its escort, making up the primary surface combatants and power projection capabilities of 7th fleet (i.e.: not including the amphibious assault ships)
3rd fleet OTOH is much larger with CSGs 1, 3, 9 and 11, each respectively associated with DESRON 1, DESRON 21, DESRON 9, and DESRON 23

Trawling online I'm only able to get the orbats of some of these DESRONs of pacific fleet, and I'm not even fully certain if these are the only DESRONs of pacific fleet either (am I correct to assume they are?)

Furthermore, what fraction of 3rd fleet's CSGs and associated DESRONs are normally deployed say, within the second island chain at any one time? Obviously the pacific fleet doesn't have all five CSGs and their DESRONs out there at once and even during wartime I doubt they will be able to mobilize all of them at once into a distant theatre at short notice, but the forward based nature of CSG 5 and DESRON 15 means they're always going to be there. So what of the others? Is it typically one, or two, or more additional CSGs and DESRONs in addition to that of 7th fleet's which typically operate in westpac at once?

The foundation of USN air power and surface power is obviously their carriers and escorts, so I'm trying to gauge just how vast it is in westpac during normal routine operations and what the potential surge capability is. Naturally this information will inform PLAN carrier and surface combatant requirements to an extent as well, meaning an understanding of USN capability will probably go some ways in trying to project what long term PLAN fleet goals may be as well.

Thanks!
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CGs are not part of desron anymor. there used to be cruiser destroyer squadron. It now part of the CSG comprises the escort CG and about 6 Burkes in the desron.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
TerraN_EmpirE said:
Taiwan buying Abrams Tanks has been floating for a Long time but with no actual buys, I think there are a few reasons for that. 1) the Abrams is a Antitank Tank. It is a tank based around the Idea of killing enemy tanks more then operating in a support role. this has caused some like "BlackTail Defence" who makes memes and Videos blasting Abrams, Styker and Bradley as hunks of Junk and waste.
Abrams can be reconfigured in theory to a more flexible tank but the mindset that created it was to kill enemy vehicles across European Plains and Desert dunes. by moving at a fast rate of speed and engaging enemy Cavalry formations.
Taiwan is not a nation needing that It's Tank formations need to move across the smaller land mass of Taiwan. that needs to move across the bridges and land formations of the island target engage invaders and vanish.
2) Despite being a Abrams fan I have to admit Abrams is a gas hog. Even for tanks it drinks more fuel then most. For A island nation that can be a killer, it's a Specialized tool for a special kind of Army. And even as I Type this that Army and Tank needs to change to meet new needs.

Personally I Think this is likely to be Controversial but if there was a tank better suited in my mind to the Armed forces of the ROC It is the Mitsubishi Heavy industries Type 10 Tank. It's light weight, large gun ( for a tank of it's weight, with previsions for larger 50 and 55 caliber guns) Small size and suspension with speed I see as advantages that would better suit the Taiwanese then the Abrams.
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Agreed. Taiwan doesn't need mbts. What they need are tank killer.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
kwaigonegin said:
CGs are not part of desron anymor. there used to be cruiser destroyer squadron. It now part of the CSG comprises the escort CG and about 6 Burkes in the desron.
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I want to also add that you can read up a lot on deployment schedules, exercises, assets, desrons etc at the navy.mil site specific navy FB pages etc.
As far as surge or wartime deployments and contingencies I'm afraid my pay scale is not high enough to know who goes where, when and do what ... ;)
Ships move all the time due to mission requirements or even when a carrier goes to RCOH things get 'redistributed' and reassign from the strike group etc.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
The Ministry of National Defense said it would stick to a plan to buy 120 US-made
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Abrams tanks in an estimated
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billion (US$1.08 billion) deal.
The Republic of China (ROC) Army Command Headquarters Office said the program’s budget allocation would be made in 2017, with delivery expected to begin in 2020.

The army plans to purchase 120 second-hand
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tanks from the US military to replace Taiwan’s aging M60A3 and CM-11 “Brave Tiger” main battle tanks and bolster infantry divisions’ combat strength.

Upon delivery, the 120 tanks are to constitute two battalions for deployment at the main ROC infantry base in Hsinchu County’s Hukou Township (湖口), which is tasked with the defense of the capital, Taipei, and northern Taiwan, army officials said.
The original plan was to buy the newer M1A2 tank, which has enhanced electronics and weapons control systems, but it came at a higher price tag, officials said.

The ministry elected to go with M1A1s for the estimated expense of
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billion.
Officials said this follows the path taken by Australia, which upgraded its infantry with second-hand
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tanks that had been kept in storage.

The US performed complete performance tests and systems checks before delivery, it added.

Link:
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Back to bottling my Grenache
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
A little late to the party, but I am also of the opinion that the M1 deal is a bad idea. Especially now that it has transpired the tanks in question are the basic M1A1s rather than more modern variants.

Basically Taiwan is getting a super heavy tank that is ill suited for their terrain, which is just about on par with the PLA mainstay Type 96 in terms of sensors and electronics, and distinctly inferior to the PLA top dog Type 99.

Worse still, these M1A1s are scheduled to start coming on line after the PLA next gen super heavy Type 99A2 (or whatever its official designation really is), which will pretty much outclass them in every measureable category.

All this deal will do is basically recreate the mismatch in tank power previously with the M60 vs Type 96/99 in the future.

Seems like bad value for a billion dollars.
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
plawolf said:
A little late to the party, but I am also of the opinion that the M1 deal is a bad idea. Especially now that it has transpired the tanks in question are the basic M1A1s rather than more modern variants.

Basically Taiwan is getting a super heavy tank that is ill suited for their terrain, which is just about on par with the PLA mainstay Type 96 in terms of sensors and electronics, and distinctly inferior to the PLA top dog Type 99.

Worse still, these M1A1s are scheduled to start coming on line after the PLA next gen super heavy Type 99A2 (or whatever its official designation really is), which will pretty much outclass them in every measureable category.

All this deal will do is basically recreate the mismatch in tank power previously with the M60 vs Type 96/99 in the future.

Seems like bad value for a billion dollars.
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Thanks for the update plawolf. I mostly stick to Latin American News and just came across this information. So in my isolated little bubble it was news to me :) I'll just stick to that

Central South America:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/central-and-south-american-military-news-discussion.t6627/page-96

Brazil:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/brazilian-military-news-photos-videos.t7113/page-26
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
IIRC, the M1A2 is about five tons heavier than the M1A2, at 66 tons or so, that would strain the ROCA logistics even worse (the Type 99A2/B/A or whatever it's called is at least least 60-62 tons, and that's without any MOUT kit).

Regardless, 120 tanks (2 battalions) almost screams token force. I suppose they'll be used to defend Taipei, but those bases would be relatively easy to wipeout in 2030 with say, a railgun strike, or swarming UAVs.
 
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