World War II Battleship on Battleship Engagements

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
This thread is about Battleship on Battleship surface engagements in World War II.

In the Pacific there were really only two. One was the 4th Battle off Savo Island by Guadalcanal on the evening of November 14, into the early morning hours of November 15, 1942. The other was the battle of Suriago Strait during the evening of October 24th and into the early morning hours of November 25, 1944.

Here's some info on the first one, off Savo Island near Guadalcanal:

4th Battle of Savo Island (off Guadalcanal), November 14-15, 1942

Imperial Japanese Navy:
1 x Battleship Kirishima
2 x Hevy crusiers
2 x Light cruisers
9 x destroyers
4 x Tranports

US Navy:
2 x Battleshipa Washington and South dakota
4 x Destroyers

KondoKirishimaNov14.jpg
Japanese heavy cruiser & battleship Kirishima sailing towards Guadalcanal, Nov 14, 1942​

Kirishima and the two heavy cruisers were detached as a bombarment group for Henderson field. The two light cruisers and four destroyers screened these vessels, the four transports and other destroyers were to perform the landing of einforcements on Gualdalcanal at first light.

The four US destroyers screend the battleships forward, and at 23:22 began an engagement with the Japanese destroyers and light cruisers. Three of them were sunk, the other damaged. But they achieved their mission of engaging the forwad Japanese forces, allowing the battleships to pass and engage the principle Japanese surface units. One japanese destroyer was severally damaged as the battleships passed by.

The Japanese battleship Kirishima and the two heavy cruisers engaged Washington and South Dakota beginning just before midnight on the 14th. The Japanese ships located and concentrated on south Dakota who had already experienced a non-combat related electrical problem which had seriously impacted her communications and turret operations. South Dakota took twenty-five medium caliber and one large caliber hits that knocked out all communications and her gunfire control, those hits also set areas of her upper decks on fire. At 00:17 on the 15th of November, the south Dakota broke off and steered away from the battle, but did scoree a few hits on Kirishima, though nothing major. South Dakota's commanding officer later summarized, "The Japanese had rendered one of our new battleships, the South Dakota, deaf, dumb, blind, and impotent."

NavalGuadalcanalWashington.jpg
USS Washington firing on Kirishima in the very early hours of Nov 15, 1942​

In the mean time the Washington was able to approach, undetected to within 9,000 yards of Kirishima and open fire. Washington fired a total of seventy-five 16-inch and one hundred and seven 5-inch rounds during the engagment and struck Kirishima with at least nine 16-inch rounds and upwards of forty secondary, 5-inch rounds. Several of the hits were below the waterline on Kirishima. This punding caused massive and severe damage to Kirishima, leaving her burning all along her upper deck, taking on massive amounts of water, and with her rudder jammed, circling uncontrolled to port.

The Japanese turned away.

The severelly damaged Japanese destroyer and the fatally damaged Kirishima were scuttled and sank by 03:00 hours of Novmber 15th. The rest of the japanese surface group departed so as to be away from Guadalcanal's Henderson Field by daylight. The four transports beached themselves on Guadlalcanal and were detroyed the next day by air attack and destroyer gun fire.

BeachedTransports.jpg
Japanese trasnports buring oin the beach of Gualdalcanal, Nov 15, 1942​

The result:

Imperial Japanese Navy:
Lost Battleship Kirishima
Lost one desttroyer
Lost four tranports

US Navy:
Lost three destroyers
Damged Battleship South Dakota

I will document the Battle of Suriago Strait here next.

Please, other members should similarly document the Atlantic and other similar engagements during World War II. The Bismark - Hood Engagement. The engagement between Bismark and the other Royal Navy vessels later. etc.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Battle of Suriago Strait, November 24-25, 1944


Imperial Japanese Navy:
2 x Battleship Yamashiro and Fuso
4 x Heavy cruisers
8 x Destroyers

(These forces were in two groups, the two Battleships, two heavy cruisers and four destroyers in the vanguard)

US Navy:
6 x Battleships: West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, California, Pennsylvania
4 x Heavy Cruisers
4 x Light Cruisers
28 x Destroyers
39 x PT BOats

(All of the battleships in this force had been either damaged or sunk at Pearl Harbor except Mississippi, and then repaired)


Suriago-01.jpg
Japanese battleships Fuso and Yamashiro en route, Nov 1944​

The Japanese Vanguard force, commanded by Admiral Nishimura, had to intially run a gauntlet of the motor Torpedo Botas (PT Boats). At 22:36 the PT Boat attacks began at the entrance to the straits and continued for three and a half hours. The Japnese ships were undamaged by this, but a running report of their location was fed to the other American ships preparing to ttack them. Numerous NAvy destroyers had taken up position on either side of the strait further up the strait from the PT Boats and they then initiated their own massive torpedo attacks.

Suriago-03.jpg
US PT-Boats preparing for action, Nov 24, 1944​

At 03:00 hours, both battleships were hit by torpedoes. The Yamashiro was only slightly damaged and continued on, but the Fuso was struck by multiple torpedoes from the USS Melvin. One account had her breaking in two and both halves later sinking, another account, from a Japanese survivor, indicated that the vessel rolled over and capsized. Either way, the Fuso was sunk. Two destoyers were also sunk, and one of the heavy cruisers was severelly damaged and had to retire...and later sank too.

The Yamahiro, one heavy cruiser and two destroyers cleared the destroyer attack and proceeded further down the strait.

Suriago-02.jpg
US Navy Battleships of Admrial Oldendorf’s Task Force 77.2.​

Not too far away, at the far end of the strait, the US battleships and cruisers under Admiral Oldendorf waited. They had taken up posiitoon across the straits and were set up to cross the "T" of the advancing Japanese vessles. Which they did.

It was a slaughter house.

At 03:16, the USS West Virginia‍ picked up the Japanese ships at a range of 42,000 yards. As the vessels approached to within 30,000 yards, West Virginia sacheived a firing solution. At 03:53, she fired her eight 16-inch main guns at a range of 22,800 yards. She stuck the Japanese battleship with her first salvo. West Virginia fired a total of 93 shells. TWo minutes after West Virginina began firing, the USS California and USS Tennessee began firing too. Those two battleships fired a total of 63 and 69 14-inch shells, respectively. The newer US Radar fire control allowed these battlewagons to hit the Japanese ships from well beyond their own fire control systems.

Suriago-06.jpg
USS West Viginia Firing on Japanese vessels at Suriago Strait, Nov 25, 1944​

The other three, older US battleships, were equipped with less advanced fire control and had difficulty arriving at a friing solution as quickly as the first three vessels. The USS Maryland eventually succeeded in visually ranging the Japanese ships and fired a total of 48 16-inch projectiles. Pennsylvania never was able to arrive at a firing solution and her main battery reamined silent. The USS Mississippi, at the end of the battle line, finally obtained a firing solution right at the ene dof the battle and was able to fire a single full, twelve gun salvo of 14-inch shells. These were the last shells fired by a battleship against another battleship in history.

The Japanese battleship Yamashiro and her accompanying heavy cruiser were quickly disabled and then devastated by the 16-inch and 14-inch gun fire arrayed against them from the battleships, as well as the eventual gunfire from the cUS cruisers.

Suriago-05.jpg
Japanese battleship Yamashiro illuminated in Suriago Strait, Nov 25, 1944​

As the firing commenced, the Japanese Admiral, Nishimura, gave his final order to his fleet; “You are to proceed to attack all ships.”

In the exchange, the Japanese vessels did return fire, firing all possible batteries in several directions against the line of ships lined up horizontally across their axis of advance. According to Japanese officers, they were, "frantically showering steel," back at the American.

But it was ineffectual. Only one American destroyer, the USS Anthony Grant, was hit by Japanese fire as she made a torpedo run against the Japanexe. The USS Anthony Grant was also hit by numerous shells from the US Navy cruisers and further damaged, after which, seeing that the Japanese were heavily damaged and turning away, Oldendorf ordered a cease fire.

Yamashiro sank at about 04:20 that morning. One of the destroyers was damaged and stopped dead in the water. The damaged heavy cruiser and final destroyer were able to break off and flea back down the Strait.

The second Japanese force was following the Vanguard force by about 40 miles. In the conditions of the Strait, the inferior Japanese radar was unable to detect the US ships, especially the PT boats. The PT boats attacked the second force and PT-137 hit the lone of the Japanese light cruisers, crippling her and causing her to fall out of formation.

One US PT-Boat was sunk in this action.

The Japanese heavy cruisers and destroyers then proceeded on and encountered the remnants of the Vanguard force as it retreated. Upon seeing them, the second force also ordered a retreat. As they turned, the flagship cruiser of this force, collided with the damaged heavy cruiser of the Vanguard force, flooding the damaged cruiser's steering room. This caused her to fall behind in the retreating combined force. She was sunk by aircraft the next morning.

Of the Vanguard force's seven ships, only one destroyer survived the engagement. All of the vessels of the second force survived the battle, with two cruisers damaged. But they would all be destroyed in further engagements around Leyte in the following days. The one destroyer from the Vanguard force escaped, but as she retired toward Malay, she was sunk the submarine, USS Blackfin.

This engagement was the last battleship on battleship surface engagement in history.

Although it was a complete defeat of the Japanese forces, it did draw the US Navy's large surface force under Oldendorf away from the American anchorage at Leyte Gulf and opened the door for the much heavier Japanese northern surface force to surprise and engage US forces there in the Battle off Samar.

The results of the of Battle of Suriago Strait:

Imperial Japanese Navy:
Lost Battleship Fuso
Lost Battleship Yamashiro
Lost two heavy cruisers
Lost three desteoyers
Damage one heavy cruiser
Damage to on light cruiser
Damage to one destroyer

(Ultimately, within a few days, all Japanese vessels of this force were suink)

US Navy:
One US Destroyer damaged
One US PT-Boat sunk
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Jeff Head
PT Boats don' t have do good jobs, 39 in 13 little Sqns

A very good PDF
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Also ofc Kurita decision in more for a Japanese remains very curious if you search more it is clear It was not a fanatic but if her TF had fight more long time saying up to 12 PM this TF would have been within range of TF 38 back and even intercepted by the SAG with the 2 Iowas + 3 light cruisers + 9 destroyers so a great what if as we like with Yamato class against Iowas ! :p

Comparisons here
Best Battleship
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Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member

View attachment 18469
Japanese battleship Yamashiro illuminated in Suriago Strait, Nov 25, 1944​


The two tiers of casemate guns and the tripod main mast indicates the ship in the image is a nagato class battleship. It is most definitively not either Fuso or Yamashiro.

For a recent analysis of the battle, see Antony Telly's "battle of Surigao Strait". His analysis indicate the holocaust of fire delivered by the 6 US battleship was not nearly as accurate or effective as might have been expected. Yamashiro was still making 16 knots, navigable and under control, and had at least 4 of her 6 14" gun turrets in action, at the end of the gunnery phase of the battle, after having been subjected to 20 minutes of concentrated bombardment from the 6 US battleships.

In other words, 6 US battleships didn't damage the 20 year old Yamashiro as effectively as 2 British battleships had damaged the brand new Bismarck during the final engagement over a comparable amount of time.
 
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The two tiers of casemate guns and the tripod main mast indicates the ship in the image is a nagato class battleship. It is most definitively not either Fuso or Yamashiro.

For a recent analysis of the battle, see Antony Telly's "battle of Surigao Strait". His analysis indicate the holocaust of fire delivered by the 6 US battleship was not nearly as accurate or effective as might have been expected. Yamashiro was still making 16 knots, navigable and under control, and had at least 4 of her 6 14" gun turrets in action, at the end of the gunnery phase of the battle, after having been subjected to 20 minutes of concentrated bombardment from the 6 US battleships.

In other words, 6 US battleships didn't damage the 20 year old Yamashiro as effectively as 2 British battleships had damaged the brand new Bismarck during the final engagement over a comparable amount of time.
These 6 US battleships for a part damaged to Pearl Harbor had been very modernized with radars fire control system very capable can reach fast a fire solution but they had 2 different types of radars one for 3 BBs and one less good.
 

Mirabo

Junior Member
Registered Member
Let's also not forget that the Battle of Surigao Strait was not purely a battleship engagement. Yamashiro, for instance, was first hit by at least one torpedo from an American destroyer, which flooded her aft magazines and caused a slight list. In total, she received at least four torpedo hits and sank following a 45 degree list. Her sister ship Fuso was also hit by at least one torpedo, resulting in her capsizing within the next 40 minutes of battle. Not only did the six American dreadnoughts contribute less than expected, they were not the main reason for the two Japanese battleships' sinking.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Let's also not forget that the Battle of Surigao Strait was not purely a battleship engagement. Yamashiro, for instance, was first hit by at least one torpedo from an American destroyer, which flooded her aft magazines and caused a slight list. In total, she received at least four torpedo hits and sank following a 45 degree list. Her sister ship Fuso was also hit by at least one torpedo, resulting in her capsizing within the next 40 minutes of battle. Not only did the six American dreadnoughts contribute less than expected, they were not the main reason for the two Japanese battleships' sinking.

Ok détails here i see 2 hits for Fuso.
Few ! any reason ?

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And why Musashi need about the double of hits than Yamato for sunk, i have see IIRC ? The Yamato's compartment where the pumps would have been damaged enough soon by US aicrafts so Counter-flooding very difficult... in fact unlucky right ?

Because a difference of hits between the 2 ...

6 waves ! 9 hour after the first hit sunk
By some accounts, it took 19 torpedoes, 17 bombs and 6 near misses to take her down
Incredible !!!
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Mirabo

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ok détails here i see 2 hits for Fuso.
Few ! any reason ?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


And why Musashi need about the double of hits than Yamato for sunk, i have see IIRC ? The Yamato's compartment where the pumps would have been damaged enough soon by US aicrafts so Counter-flooding very difficult... in fact unlucky right ?

Because a difference of hits between the 2 ...

6 waves ! 9 hour after the first hit sunk

Incredible !!!
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Fuso was hit by at least one torpedo, so it's fully possible that she may have been hit by two. Some sources say two, but it is basically confirmed that she was hit by at least one. It didn't take that many torpedoes to sink her because: One, she's a very old battleship built before WWI and her torpedo protection was not very good. Two, Japanese damage control was relatively poor. Three, ship-launched torpedoes are larger and more powerful than air-dropped torpedoes.

Musashi took 19 air-dropped torpedoes and 17 bombs to sink because the US torpedo bombers attacked her from both sides, causing unintentional counterflooding and hence lengthening the time it took for her to sink. Applying lessons learned from the sinking of the Musashi, the US focused attacks only on one side of the Yamato in Operation Ten-Go, and so it "only" took 12 torpedoes to capsize and sink her, compared to the 19 it took to sink Musashi.

Yamato was objectively the best battleship ever put into service. Iowa's fire control was the best for her time, but Yamato's fire control was by no means bad, and she is better than Iowa in all other aspects aside from speed. While her torpedo protection system was flawed due to the weak joint between her upper and lower armor belt, it was still so strong that Yamato could take 12 torpedoes before capsizing, and in Musashi's case, 19.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Yamato was the strongest battleship from the perspective of a traditional battle line engagement of Jutland style. But the role of battleship has already evolved at the time of her commissioning, and she was by no means a satisafactory battleship design even for 1941, Much less the best.

Regarding the difference between the damage tolerance between Yamato and musashi, the torpedos used against musashi had traditional TNT fill. The power of those warheads were within the design tolerance of musashi's torpedo protection. On the whole musashi's torpedo defense successfully contained most of the torpedo hits against her central citadel. So she was lost in the end largely because of the damage and flooding in her unprotected front end, and the inability of the damage control party to contain those flooding. But the fact that she remained afloat for so long after being hit by 19 torpedos is a tribute to the fact that her torpedo defense largely functioned as designed.

The torpedos used against Yamato had torpex fill, which was much more energetic than TNT, and surpassed the design tolerance of Yamato' torpedo defense. So her torpedo defences were repeatedly ruptured by American torpedos. The fact that she took 12 torpedo to sink was therefore not a tribute to her effective torpedo defense. Her torpedo defense largely failed against the more powerful American torpedo warheads. It was instead a tribute to her internal subdivision and aggressive counter flooding.
 
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