075 LHD thread

tamsen_ikard said:

If we are looking at a Taiwan scenario then China will certainly not deal with older MANPADS. They will deal with the latest ones. Plus, Taiwan has a large reservist force which will be mobilized before the war. These reservists armed with MANPADS can do a missile barrage that no helicopter will be able to defeat. So, I don't think those Helicopters will be useful in an actively defended beach landing.

They might be useful if the landing is not on the beach but much more inside for a surprise transport of troops. Of course Air superiority is essential to defeat all high end SAM sites. But after that part is over. PLA might want to land behind enemy lines with helicopters instead of doing a beach landing that could be heavily defended. With high altitude, Helicopters can probably beat MANPADS.

I don't think Helicopters are useful against modern Ships with good radars. Their nap the earth Strategy will be ineffective when they get to around 20 miles of a ship. Then, they will be within the earth's curvature horizon and easily visible to the ship radar. Most helicopters have missiles with very low range. The moment they are visible by ships radar, they will be shot down with air defense missiles. Plus helicopters are too slow to avoid ship based SAM missiles.

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Without drifting into the helicopter threads, I'll just quickly add these points:

1. Aided by radar/missile/laser warning receivers combined with chaf/flare and infrared countermeasures, I'm confident a PLA helo pilot has the tools and sufficient reaction time to perform effective evasive maneuvers when fired by a MANPAD.
2. I have no idea what the PLA doctrine is, but I'm almost certain no Z-10 or Z-19 would be flying alone - They'd almost certainly fly in tandem, if not in greater numbers. If they detect a missile being fired upon them, it only takes one helo to turn to where the missile was fired from and lay waste to it with rockets/mow down opposing troops.
3. Target acquisition and launching of a MANPAD takes time. While an attack helicopter might be slower than a Harrier or an F-35B, it still has the ability to fly fast at 100 something knots. A soldier still needs to seek out the helo, find a good spot to fire the MANPAD, place said MANPAD on his/her shoulder, anticipate where the helo is going, and ultimately fire the weapon.... That's a long time, certainly enough time to be identified as a hostile by troops on the ground or the eye in the sky, by which they will be greeted/neutralized by the barrel of a Type 96 tank or the Z-10's plethora of weapons. Like I said it takes five fingers to form a fist, especially in joint warfare.

MANPADs aren't wonder weapons.

The fact the Type 075 can bring multiple helicopter platforms to a battlefield in tandem with landing troops from the Type 071 is absolutely a game changer.

Wasn't the whole plan with the LHDs they would be fitted with EMALS and launch drones for CAS?

silentlurker said:

Wasn't the whole plan with the LHDs they would be fitted with EMALS and launch drones for CAS?

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That would be the mythical Type 076.

tamsen_ikard said:

If we are looking at a Taiwan scenario then China will certainly not deal with older MANPADS. They will deal with the latest ones. Plus, Taiwan has a large reservist force which will be mobilized before the war. These reservists armed with MANPADS can do a missile barrage that no helicopter will be able to defeat. So, I don't think those Helicopters will be useful in an actively defended beach landing.

They might be useful if the landing is not on the beach but much more inside for a surprise transport of troops. Of course Air superiority is essential to defeat all high end SAM sites. But after that part is over. PLA might want to land behind enemy lines with helicopters instead of doing a beach landing that could be heavily defended. With high altitude, Helicopters can probably beat MANPADS.

I don't think Helicopters are useful against modern Ships with good radars. Their nap the earth Strategy will be ineffective when they get to around 20 miles of a ship. Then, they will be within the earth's curvature horizon and easily visible to the ship radar. Most helicopters have missiles with very low range. The moment they are visible by ships radar, they will be shot down with air defense missiles. Plus helicopters are too slow to avoid ship based SAM missiles.

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I will point out a very often seen rookie mistake you are making, that is to assume "if a military equipment can be attacked by a weapon, it will be destroyed, so that equipment becomes completely useless"
In the same logic, when there is anti tank missile, tanks are outdated, when there is asbm, air craft carriers are outdated, etc, etc

There is no way, any army will put a soldier armed with MANPAD on every km of shoreline because it will stretch their defense extremely thin and practically indefensible against a concentrated attack. Thus there will be a lot of shorelines without air defense. With good intel and recon by covet special forces days or weeks before actual landing operation, several safe landing zones can be selected. (During Falkland war, British landed on San Carlos Bay with little resistance on the first day, they had recon the bay before hand).

In a very unlikely scenario where they managed to put MANPAD on every kilometer, which meant there will be only 10 missiles on a 10km shoreline. If first wave of air sorties by PLA are drones, fire exchange between drones and shore air defense will deplete much of the air defense missiles including the MANPADs, long range rocket bombardment from the mainland shores to island shores will further weaken shore defense including anti-air missile emplacement.

Type 071/075 will send helicopters, LCACs and amphibious tanks only after air control is secured and shore defense is weakened. Helicopters will be shot down, LCACs will be hit but their chances of survival is greatly enhanced with a good game plan by eliminating threads like MANPAD. Once a beachhead is expanded with a radius beyond range of MANPAD, these missiles are useless.

The key is to secure a beachhead, tearing a hole on island defense and provide a safe zone for type 071/075 and their helicopters/LCAC/amphibious tanks to come a shore. These ships are not the first to go into battle, drones and special forces are, long range rockets, J20/J16/J11/H6 will follow, actual mass troop landing will be later phase.

A battle where type 075 sending in helicopters to capture a beach, fighting fiercely head on with shore defense like the D day on Normandy in WW2 is outdated, and a suicide.

As noted on 1. October, the first Type 075 LHD has been transferred to another shipyard nearby.
Now it reappeared at Chongming Island.

(Images via @捣蛋不捣蛋 from Weibo)

Deino said:

As noted on 1. October, the first Type 075 LHD has been transferred to another shipyard nearby.
Now it reappeared at Chongming Island.

(Images via @捣蛋不捣蛋 from Weibo)

View attachment 64262

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If it is, then it must be Huarong Dadong shipyard, which is partially owned by HDZ.

HRDD specializes in ship conversion, repair, retrofits and refits. I think I posted some information about Huarong Dadong on the Shipbuilding thread.

I suspect some retrofit might be planned.

Looks like they're going to change the funnel on the island after all.

Type 075 goes into drydock.

If that is Huarun Dadong, its not new. Its been a dockyard specializing in repair and refit of ships for some time now as a separate entity, and Hudong Zhonghua bought partial ownership into it. The number of shipyards in China is immense, well over 3,000 at its peak in 2012 but due to the slowdown of global shipbuilding since then, a number of shipyards has either closed down, or has consolidated with others. HRDD is one of those consolidations.

daifo said:

Hope Chinese commander understand the frontal human wave assault is outdated. Ideally, the offensive party would use deception to get the enemy to prepare in one area while going around, like in normandy, desert storm etc

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No deception. Only hard or harder. ;P