055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[escobar]

The Renhai has 112 VLS cells and can carry a large load out of weapons including ASCMs, surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), torpedoes, and anti-submarine weapons along with likely LACMs and anti-ship ballistic missiles (ASBMs) when those become operational.

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[Andy1974]

One question to ask is the CEC that happens between the 055 connected to another ship like an aircraft carrier. Here you see the Shandong, which has these panels as indicated by the green pointer. 003 has eight of these on its crown mast.

The Shandong has the advantage over the 055 because its radars are located so high, they have a much greater radar horizon than what's possible on the 055 or on any destroyer in the planet. In addition to the Type 346 radar panels, the Type 364 radar is even higher---note the bulb radome between the two 346A panels, which there are two on each sides of the island. To top it all, there is still the Type 382 radar right there are the very top.

View attachment 78728


So the theoretical question and situation is this---

You have the Shandong on the center of the battle group and a 055 far at the port side. Antiship missiles are coming in low at the starboard side. They are far too low for any of the 055's radars to detect them because of the limitations of the radar horizon with the 055's radar heights, both the main S-band radar and the secondary X-band radar. However, the Shandong's radars, with the Type 382 Sea Eagle spotting these missiles first, followed by the Type 364 Sea Gulls and Type 346A Dragons Eye. By the time the 364 and 346 radars are able to scan and track the targets, these radars could obtain a weapons quality track of the targets. The IFF bars on the Shandong completes friend and foe interrogation and concludes the targets are foes.

Using CEC, the Shandong would already be streaming data to the 055, as the targets are tracked by the Type 382, then 364 and 346 radars. The targets are still beyond the radar horizon of the 055's own radars, but high quality tracks of the targets are confirmed and so the HHQ-9s are launched off from the 055, which then arcs over the Shandong as they head towards their targets. At this point the HHQ-9s are connected by datalink to the 055 which is updating them from the data provided by the Shandong.

As the HHQ-9s go further and towards below the datalink radio horizon of the 055, so the question what comes next? Two possibilities. The first is that the HHQ-9 active radar seekers go active and will seek to destroy the targets autonomously. The second is that the Shandong also has its datalink, in which case the 055 hands over the HHQ-9s to the Shandong. Using the Shandong's datalinks --- the HHQ-9 datalink I believe is embedded within the Type 346 array, probably at the corners --- the HHQ-9 completes the handover and is continually updated by the Shandong. With the Shandong's radar height to be much greater, the Shandong's datalink line of sight to the HHQ-9 will be much greater in terms of radio horizon, allowing the HHQ-9 to travel further and closer to the target before turning its active radar seeker on and going terminal.

How far can each of these ships be? Just as long as the cooperative ships are within the line of sight and radio horizon of these panels, which is why these panels have to be located at a high point in the ship. The communicating distance between the Shandong to a 055 is going to be greater than a 055 to another 055.

Beautiful descriptions and writing, you could write a short fiction story, I could read pages of this stuff!

 

[Andy1974]

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The united states Congress is being fed this garbage by their own agencies, what hope is there for rationality?

The paranoia is terrifying, these people are capable of anything.

 

[banjex]

The united states Congress is being fed this garbage by their own agencies, what hope is there for rationality?

The paranoia is terrifying, these people are capable of anything.

Are you referring to the part about anti ship ballistic missiles? Because the rest is a super standard description of the 055.

 

[weig2000]

The united states Congress is being fed this garbage by their own agencies, what hope is there for rationality?

The paranoia is terrifying, these people are capable of anything.

Well, vertical-launch ASBM is not something far-fetched. We've seen during the Zhuhai Airshow the display of VLS with four types of missile, including an anti-ship ballistic missile (there is also the model no., but I'll have to search for the picture) among others.

 

[para80]

Well, vertical-launch ASBM is not something far-fetched. We've seen during the Zhuhai Airshow the display of VLS with four types of missile, including an anti-ship ballistic missile (there is also the model no., but I'll have to search for the picture) among others.

Where do you see an AShBM?

 

[ougoah]

One question to ask is the CEC that happens between the 055 connected to another ship like an aircraft carrier. Here you see the Shandong, which has these panels as indicated by the green pointer. 003 has eight of these on its crown mast.

The Shandong has the advantage over the 055 because its radars are located so high, they have a much greater radar horizon than what's possible on the 055 or on any destroyer in the planet. In addition to the Type 346 radar panels, the Type 364 radar is even higher---note the bulb radome between the two 346A panels, which there are two on each sides of the island. To top it all, there is still the Type 382 radar right there are the very top.

View attachment 78728


So the theoretical question and situation is this---

You have the Shandong on the center of the battle group and a 055 far at the port side. Antiship missiles are coming in low at the starboard side. They are far too low for any of the 055's radars to detect them because of the limitations of the radar horizon with the 055's radar heights, both the main S-band radar and the secondary X-band radar. However, the Shandong's radars, with the Type 382 Sea Eagle spotting these missiles first, followed by the Type 364 Sea Gulls and Type 346A Dragons Eye. By the time the 364 and 346 radars are able to scan and track the targets, these radars could obtain a weapons quality track of the targets. The IFF bars on the Shandong completes friend and foe interrogation and concludes the targets are foes.

Using CEC, the Shandong would already be streaming data to the 055, as the targets are tracked by the Type 382, then 364 and 346 radars. The targets are still beyond the radar horizon of the 055's own radars, but high quality tracks of the targets are confirmed and so the HHQ-9s are launched off from the 055, which then arcs over the Shandong as they head towards their targets. At this point the HHQ-9s are connected by datalink to the 055 which is updating them from the data provided by the Shandong.

As the HHQ-9s go further and towards below the datalink radio horizon of the 055, so the question what comes next? Two possibilities. The first is that the HHQ-9 active radar seekers go active and will seek to destroy the targets autonomously. The second is that the Shandong also has its datalink, in which case the 055 hands over the HHQ-9s to the Shandong. Using the Shandong's datalinks --- the HHQ-9 datalink I believe is embedded within the Type 346 array, probably at the corners --- the HHQ-9 completes the handover and is continually updated by the Shandong. With the Shandong's radar height to be much greater, the Shandong's datalink line of sight to the HHQ-9 will be much greater in terms of radio horizon, allowing the HHQ-9 to travel further and closer to the target before turning its active radar seeker on and going terminal.

How far can each of these ships be? Just as long as the cooperative ships are within the line of sight and radio horizon of these panels, which is why these panels have to be located at a high point in the ship. The communicating distance between the Shandong to a 055 is going to be greater than a 055 to another 055.

The difference in height above sea level between the positions of these 346s correspond to what lateral distance for let's say something that is skimming only 2m above sea level? I do not believe it is much at all. Maybe translates to 2 or 3 seconds of difference at mach 2. Cant be bothered working it out.

I can understand why plenty of modern destroyers want to place their main AESAs as high up as possible for the extra few seconds against supersonic sea skimmers but at the end of the day it's a compromise between the slight detection advantage by seconds and factors like how potent these radars are. The American and Chinese units are POTENT and overpowered compared to the variations of Sampsons and EL/Ms of the world. Shandong may be the only vessel to place top tier, overpowered AESAs this high up and clearly they consider the time advantage to be worthy of doing this task but the Type 055's AESAs are more powerful, heavier, and larger than the ones placed on Shandong.

It's a good fleet design choice only because the carriers are already significantly taller. Even if they could put 055's 346 as high up as a Sampson is for a Daring, it would still not be as high up as the 346 for the Shandong. So yeah the distance and time advantage yielded is better (not that it's possible to place 346 high up for the 055!). Overall, this is the highest available lookout position for the fleet and I consider the choice to be one where they prefer to take advantage of uniquely high lookout position for nothing more than having one, than it is for actual usefulness in 2 or 3 seconds advantage over the 055's 346 positions.

For a subsonic stealth sea skimmer (which is the thing to counter), this translates to fairly significant distance and time advantage though.

 

[Temstar]

Where do you see an AShBM?

View attachment 78749

I wasn't aware of AShBM at the quad pack display, however there's been a AshBM up for display before at Zhuhai:


"near space trajectory", "multiple launch platform" and of course "290km" max range due to MTCR. Keep in mind this is an export weapon, for PLAN's own use they would surely have something better.

 

[para80]

Yes, the CM-401 has been spotted before, but it was presented as a land-based asset from a mobile launcher. I caution of tying such systems to the VLS, when so far we have seen no indication (beyond that obscure graphic of a vertically launched undefined missile from an undefined warship) to that effect. Claims such as above re the VLS quickly become unverified myth, and given the US report has actually used more cautious phrasing this year re any alleged deployment from 055, I'd say we should continue to err on the side of caution and scepticism.

 

[weig2000]

Where do you see an AShBM?

View attachment 78749

Yes, the CM-401 has been spotted before, but it was presented as a land-based asset from a mobile launcher. I caution of tying such systems to the VLS, when so far we have seen no indication (beyond that obscure graphic of a vertically launched undefined missile from an undefined warship) to that effect. Claims such as above re the VLS quickly become unverified myth, and given the US report has actually used more cautious phrasing this year re any alleged deployment from 055, I'd say we should continue to err on the side of caution and scepticism.View attachment 78751View attachment 78752

I think I might have mistaken CM-401 to be inside the displayed VLS. Bad memory.

In any case, I didn't believe PLAN has a near-to-deployment shipborne ASBM. That's why I said it was an "idea," as many models in Zhuhai Airshow often turned out to be. Nevertheless I do believe a shipborne AShBM is very much feasible. In fact, PLAN's next-generation anti-ship missiles are very likely to be composed of hypersonic anti-ship cruise missile (YJ-21, currently under development) and potentially shipborne anti-ship ballistic missile, which may introduce some doctrinal change in future CBG strategy.