Type 055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread


krautmeister

Junior Member
Registered Member
Has anybody received updates on the status of the 20-barrel CIWS under development? This is a real monster!


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The new weapon has nearly twice as many barrels as the largest close-in weapon system in service now with China's Navy.​

BY
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MAY 20, 2021

Pictures have emerged online that indicate testing of a new and absolutely fearsome-looking naval point air and missile defense system has been going on in China since January. The available images show that this weapon system notably features a
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with a whopping 20 barrels, nearly twice as many the largest close-in weapon system, or CIWS, now in service with the People's Liberation Army Navy, or PLAN.

The pictures, which first emerged on Chinese micro-blogging site Weibo and are now circulating on social media, indicate that this system has already undergone at least three rounds of live-fire tests, in January, March, and April of this year. It is unclear what entities might be involved in the design of this weapon and whether it is expected to lead to an operational system or is simply a proof of concept.

message-editor%2F1621533774953-20-barrel-ciws-inline.jpg

An image showing an apparent test of a 20-barrel Gatling-type naval close-in weapon system.

It's also not clear what the caliber of weapon is, what kind of rate of fire it might be intended to achieve, and how fast it has been able to fire. Gatling-type weapons, in general, are well known for their extremely high rates of fire compared to single-barrel guns or even other multi-barrel designs.

The mounting the weapon is seen sitting in fits with the general shape and construction of other naval close-in weapon systems (CIWS), which are installed on warships as a last line of defense, primarily against incoming missiles. China already has two domestic CIWS designs that use Gatling-style weapons, the Type 730, and its associated variants, and the Type 1130. The Type 730 features a seven-barrel 30mm Gatling-style cannon, while the Type 1130, first seen on China's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, and now present on other Chinese warships, is another 30mm design with 11 barrels.

message-editor%2F1621534970088-ld-2000.jpg

A Chinese LD-2000, which uses the same turret, seen the rear of the vehicle, as the Type 730 CIWS.

message-editor%2F1621534892419-type-1130-type-054a.jpg

A Type 1130 CIWS installed on a Chinese Type 054A frigate.

It also worth noting that the Type 730 is at least very externally similar to the
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CIWS, which uses a seven-barrel
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, the same gun found on
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ground-attack aircraft.

The Type 730 reportedly has an adjustable rate of rate fire, reportedly can, at maximum, spit out
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. The Type 1130's maximum rate of fire is reported to be at
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.

message-editor%2F1621534603485-type-1130.jpg

A Chinese Type 1130 CIWS in action.

Theoretically, with Gatling-type guns, the rate of fire is mainly determined just by how fast the barrels spin. The iconic American
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, with its six barrels, is typically set to fire at either 4,000 or 6,000 rounds per minute, but has fired faster during testing. The Phalanx CIWS, which the U.S. Navy,
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, use, and which is in service in its
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with the U.S. Army, uses a variant of the Vulcan.


Compared especially to single-barrel designs, Gatling-style weapons do have the inherent benefit of being able to distribute heat build-up and other wear and tear among their multiple barrels. At the same time, they can still overheat and be fired to the point of destruction.

As is evidenced by the reported rate of fire on the Chinese Type 1130 CIWS as compared to the Type 730, adding additional barrels can present one pathway to safely increasing how many rounds per minute a gun of this type can shoot. So, this new 20-barrel weapon could very well be able to operate reliably at a maximum rate of fire thousands of rounds per minute higher than even that of the Type 1130.

This would be an alternative to other methods of increasing the immediate firepower for a CIWS, such as adding additional guns. That is a route that the Russians, and the Soviets before them, have taken, most recently in the form of
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, which blends elements of
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with portions of
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ground-based point air defense system. Pantsir-ME, like Kashtan, has two GSh-30K six-barrel 30mm rotary cannons, each with a maximum rate of fire between 9,000 and 10,000 rounds-per-minute, but also adds eight surface-to-air missiles. Kashtan is in service in China on various warships, as well.


As China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) continues to expand the size and capabilities of its surface fleets, including with the addition of larger, more advanced vessels, including
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and
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, the demand for more capable CIWSs is only likely to grow. This has already been evidenced by the addition of the new Type 1130 to the Liaoning. Though the discussion is more commonly framed around the increasing threat that advanced Chinese, as well as Russian, anti-ship missiles, including longer-range and faster-flying
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and
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, present to other navies, the PLAN
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the
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.

A CIWS with a 20-barrel Gatling-type cannon with a very high rate of fire would, by definition, be able to put out more rounds, faster. This would be particularly valuable for engaging existing and future advanced anti-ship missiles, which are increasingly faster and
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, features that could shrink the available engagement window for close-in defenses. At the same time, unless the magazine capacity is similarly increased, this weapon might only be capable of firing a small number of total bursts before needing to be reloaded.

So, while it remains to be seen if this particular 20-barrel design will make its way into operational service, it's hardly surprising that the PLAN is looking at bigger and badder CIWSs that can spew out shells at even more blistering rates of fire as new threats continue to emerge.

UPDATE, 7:35 PM EST:
George William Herbert, an independent expert on missiles and nuclear weapons, has noticed that the side view picture of this new Chinese CIWS firing appears to show two barrels, one at the 12 o'clock position and one at the six o'clock position, firing at once. It is possible that ammunition could be fed in, and then ejected, at two separate points to support this method of operation, which would further increase the gun's overall rate of fire.
 

Maikeru

Junior Member
Registered Member
Has anybody received updates on the status of the 20-barrel CIWS under development? This is a real monster!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The new weapon has nearly twice as many barrels as the largest close-in weapon system in service now with China's Navy.​

BY
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
MAY 20, 2021

Pictures have emerged online that indicate testing of a new and absolutely fearsome-looking naval point air and missile defense system has been going on in China since January. The available images show that this weapon system notably features a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with a whopping 20 barrels, nearly twice as many the largest close-in weapon system, or CIWS, now in service with the People's Liberation Army Navy, or PLAN.

The pictures, which first emerged on Chinese micro-blogging site Weibo and are now circulating on social media, indicate that this system has already undergone at least three rounds of live-fire tests, in January, March, and April of this year. It is unclear what entities might be involved in the design of this weapon and whether it is expected to lead to an operational system or is simply a proof of concept.

message-editor%2F1621533774953-20-barrel-ciws-inline.jpg

An image showing an apparent test of a 20-barrel Gatling-type naval close-in weapon system.

It's also not clear what the caliber of weapon is, what kind of rate of fire it might be intended to achieve, and how fast it has been able to fire. Gatling-type weapons, in general, are well known for their extremely high rates of fire compared to single-barrel guns or even other multi-barrel designs.

The mounting the weapon is seen sitting in fits with the general shape and construction of other naval close-in weapon systems (CIWS), which are installed on warships as a last line of defense, primarily against incoming missiles. China already has two domestic CIWS designs that use Gatling-style weapons, the Type 730, and its associated variants, and the Type 1130. The Type 730 features a seven-barrel 30mm Gatling-style cannon, while the Type 1130, first seen on China's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, and now present on other Chinese warships, is another 30mm design with 11 barrels.

message-editor%2F1621534970088-ld-2000.jpg

A Chinese LD-2000, which uses the same turret, seen the rear of the vehicle, as the Type 730 CIWS.

message-editor%2F1621534892419-type-1130-type-054a.jpg

A Type 1130 CIWS installed on a Chinese Type 054A frigate.

It also worth noting that the Type 730 is at least very externally similar to the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
CIWS, which uses a seven-barrel
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the same gun found on
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
ground-attack aircraft.

The Type 730 reportedly has an adjustable rate of rate fire, reportedly can, at maximum, spit out
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The Type 1130's maximum rate of fire is reported to be at
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

message-editor%2F1621534603485-type-1130.jpg

A Chinese Type 1130 CIWS in action.



UPDATE, 7:35 PM EST:
George William Herbert, an independent expert on missiles and nuclear weapons, has noticed that the side view picture of this new Chinese CIWS firing appears to show two barrels, one at the 12 o'clock position and one at the six o'clock position, firing at once. It is possible that ammunition could be fed in, and then ejected, at two separate points to support this method of operation, which would further increase the gun's overall rate of fire.
If such high rates of fire are becoming necessary then sure a better solution would be directed energy weapons?
 

Richard Santos

Senior Member
Registered Member
High rate of fire allows the gatlin gun to hit the targets using firing solution of reduced quality. Direct energy weapons do not seem to confer equivalent advantage. So it appears to me any relative overall advantage of directed energy weapons diminishes rather than increases as Gatling weapon’s rate of fire increases.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Has anybody received updates on the status of the 20-barrel CIWS under development? This is a real monster!


This is likely to be a proof of concept. If not, there is one platform worthy of using it as grand introduction --- the Type 003.
 

para80

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is likely to be a proof of concept. If not, there is one platform worthy of using it as grand introduction --- the Type 003.
May just as well. Any smaller hull probably needs re-trimming after one of those things went through its ammo reserve.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
High rate of fire allows the gatlin gun to hit the targets using firing solution of reduced quality. Direct energy weapons do not seem to confer equivalent advantage. So it appears to me any relative overall advantage of directed energy weapons diminishes rather than increases as Gatling weapon’s rate of fire increases.
Can you clarify what you mean by a reduced quality firing solution and what causes it?

If your aim is off, then no matter what the ROF is, you won’t hit the target.
 

GTI

New Member
Registered Member
Can you clarify what you mean by a reduced quality firing solution and what causes it?

If your aim is off, then no matter what the ROF is, you won’t hit the target.
A LRASM?

Tbh, I thought it was nonsense when I first saw it, but he may have a point (admittedly I probably don’t know enough about CIWSs and targeting radar).

The assumption would be that a DEW would be aimed at a single point, RAM-type point defence missiles would need a quality track and FS, whereas a monster CIWS could lay down “boxes of lead” at where the target is approximated to be?

Again, I’m just postulating and positing… be kind…?
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
A LRASM?

Tbh, I thought it was nonsense when I first saw it, but he may have a point (admittedly I probably don’t know enough about CIWSs and targeting radar).

The assumption would be that a DEW would be aimed at a single point, RAM-type point defence missiles would need a quality track and FS, whereas a monster CIWS could lay down “boxes of lead” at where the target is approximated to be?

Again, I’m just postulating and positing… be kind…?
These 30 mm gun CIWS have an effective range of 1.5km - 2km. Unless the Americans have undisclosed Area 51 cloaking technology, pretty much every modern combined radar and optical targeting C-RAM system should be able to lock onto a VLO missile from that range.

I suspect it might rather be a limitation of the gun system to lay accurate/dense enough fire at high speed incoming missiles. Unlike a DEW, a cannon is subjected to strong vibrations while firing which causes small variations in placement of shells. This is not the only source of error in the gun, of course. Thermal expansion, shell variations, etc come into play as well. However, as long as the control system can keep the deviations within a small defined circle, the higher the ROF the larger the probability that a shell hits the incoming missile, which could otherwise slip through if the density of shells within the engagement cone was too low.

A Mach 3 missiles moves at 1km/s: at that speed, a 30mm CIWS might have just 1.5s of effective firing time, assuming engagement in the range [500m - 2000m].

A DEW can begin effecting the missile from a significantly longer range. If an optical targeting system can keep a lock on the target, a laser can hit it. Unlike a shell moving at Mach 3, which takes 2s to reach 2km, by which time a Mach 3 missile would also move 2km, a laser will hit the target practically instantaneously at such range.
 
Last edited:

Lethe

Senior Member
The 20-barrel gatling gun may be a mere technology or rather engineering demonstrator for the "dual firing" mechanism, or it may indeed be a response to a specific PLA(N) requirement intended to reach operational status and succeed or complement Type 1130 as a further improved CIWS. Here are the challenges I see in relation to the latter prospect:

1) Cost. It is safe to assume that the cost of the system is increasing as the number of barrels and feed systems increase.
2) Weight. It is safe to assume that weight is increasing as additional barrels and feed systems are added, coupled with greater quantities of ammunition to offer a similar number of "bursts", and the corresponding structures to support those elements may also require reinforcement. Increased weight and volume (through-deck penetration) can create challenges for mounting on existing ships, but just as significant the increased weight of the system gives it more inertia which makes it more difficult to achieve the correct orientation/elevation to engage the inbound both quickly and precisely. That is to say, there may actually be a reduction in certain aspects of system performance.
3) Reliability. As the number of components in the system increases, the likelihood of failure increases.

And ultimately, of course, you are still looking at the same kind of system with the same inherent limitations of range and projectile time of flight.

That is not to say that this 20-barrel dual-firing system, or some other mechanical improvement to existing gun-based CIWS can't or won't happen, but in my view those are the challenges that have to be overcome.
 
Last edited:

Maikeru

Junior Member
Registered Member
A LRASM?

Tbh, I thought it was nonsense when I first saw it, but he may have a point (admittedly I probably don’t know enough about CIWSs and targeting radar).

The assumption would be that a DEW would be aimed at a single point, RAM-type point defence missiles would need a quality track and FS, whereas a monster CIWS could lay down “boxes of lead” at where the target is approximated to be?

Again, I’m just postulating and positing… be kind…?
Is there any reason a DEW cannot move its aim-point around rapidly within a small given area t achieve the same effect as a shell "box"? Obviously not as efficient as aiming directly at the target but with a sufficiently powerful laser (or whatever) could work?
 

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