055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Tam

Brigadier
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SPQ-9B is not a primary search radar. It is a fire control or gunnery radar with a search function. Having a fire control radar with a search function is not uncommon. One thing the SPQ-9B doesn't do is missile target illumination as it lacks continuous wave, because it is a pulse radar. It uses Pulse Doppler for search+track and MTI for surface sea search+track. Using X-band its search is also limited, hence it still has to be paired with a primary search radar, with the exception of the smallest ships where the configuration would not allow you to pair multiple radars.

One good reason why SPQ-9B isn't used for missile illumination is that it lacks the power to do so over range compared to the
SPG-62. The tube amplifier needed for the range needed with AEGIS requirements would have to be powerful, heavy and huge, and you cannot put that high up on a mast, you have to sit those in the main hull.

xALO2lYjApKxY6k9Cyc0lu0MuTN43IYC88T99YqH638.jpg

With regards to the purported X-band radars on the Flight III Mod (which is what I like to call it), its functions should be parallel to the SPQ-9B. Removing the illumination requirements lightens the development load on the radar. It lessens your power requirements which can lessen the weight of the sets, and you don't want too much weight high up on a ship. It should a lot of power for an X-band beam to get a lock quality illumination on a target 150 to 200km, and the farther it goes, the more reasonable it is to use active guided SAMs and get rid of SARH.

Can't completely rule out that the 055 won't have ICW if you plan on using HQ-17s but if you are using only active guided missiles in your future, ICW is moot and you don't need to burden your design specs with it.

This display is from the SAST institute that designs the HQ-16 and its associative radars. The ICW seeker for the HQ-16 is probably meant for a new series of AESA based vehicular radars replacing the previous units for the land based HQ-16.

IISARSa (1).png


Ship display on the back is likely to have an X-band radar on top of the mast, but still retains the Front Dome illuminating radars for the HQ-16.


modded054A (1).png


It looks like the same radar on top of Test Ship 892 before and some say this is the X-band radar on the 055 being tested then, but in single panel form. A single face would be light enough and won't require as much power compared to a four faced set.

2016-11-27-LY-80N-le-système-VLS-naval-dédié-à-lexport-06 (3).png
 
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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
SPQ-9B is not a primary search radar. It is a fire control or gunnery radar with a search function. Having a fire control radar with a search function is not uncommon. One thing the SPQ-9B doesn't do is missile target illumination as it lacks continuous wave, because it is a pulse radar. It uses Pulse Doppler for search+track and MTI for surface sea search+track. Using X-band its search is also limited, hence it still has to be paired with a primary search radar, with the exception of the smallest ships where the configuration would not allow you to pair multiple radars.
I think after all the upgrades SPQ-9B received, it is more fair to call it a surface search radar with the additional gunnery control function. The B variant was designed specifically to detect incoming, low-flying, antiship missiles.
One good reason why SPQ-9B isn't used for missile illumination is that it lacks the power to do so over range compared to the
SPG-62. The tube amplifier needed for the range needed with AEGIS requirements would have to be powerful, heavy and huge, and you cannot put that high up on a mast, you have to sit those in the main hull.
There is no need to put the amplifier in the mast. The freedom to place the amplifier outside the antenna, upwards of 100ft away, is one of the very few advantages that PESA radars have over AESA radars. The antenna and radome of SPQ-9B mounted on the mast, weigh just 500kg.

SPY-3 is a very different beast. It weighs 2,500kg above deck and the combined power output of the 3 panels exceeds that of the AN/TPY-2 radar.
View attachment 69218

With regards to the purported X-band radars on the Flight III Mod (which is what I like to call it), its functions should be parallel to the SPQ-9B. Removing the illumination requirements lightens the development load on the radar. It lessens your power requirements which can lessen the weight of the sets, and you don't want too much weight high up on a ship. It should a lot of power for an X-band beam to get a lock quality illumination on a target 150 to 200km, and the farther it goes, the more reasonable it is to use active guided SAMs and get rid of SARH.
The original AN/SPG-62 from the early 80s had 10kW average power each, which was quite a bit. All 4 faces of the original SPY-1 had a combined average output power of 58kW.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think after all the upgrades SPQ-9B received, it is more fair to call it a surface search radar with the additional gunnery control function. The B variant was designed specifically to detect incoming, low-flying, antiship missiles.

There is no need to put the amplifier in the mast. The freedom to place the amplifier outside the antenna, upwards of 100ft away, is one of the very few advantages that PESA radars have over AESA radars. The antenna and radome of SPQ-9B mounted on the mast, weigh just 500kg.

SPY-3 is a very different beast. It weighs 2,500kg above deck and the combined power output of the 3 panels exceeds that of the AN/TPY-2 radar.

The original AN/SPG-62 from the early 80s had 10kW average power each, which was quite a bit. All 4 faces of the original SPY-1 had a combined average output power of 58kW.


Its not really a PESA. Every literature about it makes no mention the SPQ-9B being a PESA. Its a slotted array.

You are correct the cabinet with the amplifier is on deck.

The A variant was also designed as a fire control radar and for detecting incoming low flying missiles. The B inherits the same tasks, but improved on the tasks by having a dual back slotted array that doubles the rate of update, and adds a 3D and elevation feature, as the A variant is only on 2D. Output power is at 1.2kw which is way lower than the SPG-62, and both A and B has a maximum range of 40,000 yards, but the surface detect capability is up to 37km.

SPY-5 is the reserved designation for an X-band radar that is meant to complement either the SPY-6 or SPY-7.
 
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by78

General
One more high-resolution magazine scan from the latest issue of Ship Knowledge magazine.

50981186152_b7367057cf_k.jpg
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Its not really a PESA. Every literature about it makes no mention the SPQ-9B being a PESA. Its a slotted array.
You are right about it being a slotted array.

It uses a modified transmitter from the APG-68 radar on the F-16s, which also have a slotted array. Friedman claims that the emitted beamwidth is 1x1 deg, as do other sources. If all this radar does is aim the beam at the horizon, how can it track a missile without vertical scan? That beam is just 650m wide from 37km away. AFAIK, the array has no mechanical swivel in the vertical direction.

From
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:
"The AN/SPQ-9B scans out to the horizon and performs simultaneous and automatic air and surface target detection and tracking of low flying Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles (ASCMs), surface threats and low/slow flying aircraft, UAVs and helicopters."

Therefore, it scans from near the ship up to the horizon while rotating horizontally. My guess is that it does so by means of electronic scan, which can be accomplished through frequency scanning besides phase scanning.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Its not really a PESA. Every literature about it makes no mention the SPQ-9B being a PESA. Its a slotted array.

You are right about it being a slotted array.

It uses a modified transmitter from the APG-68 radar on the F-16s, which also have a slotted array. Friedman claims that the emitted beamwidth is 1x1 deg, as do other sources. If all this radar does is aim the beam at the horizon, how can it track a missile without vertical scan? That beam is just 650m wide from 37km away. AFAIK, the array has no mechanical swivel in the vertical direction.

From
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:
"The AN/SPQ-9B scans out to the horizon and performs simultaneous and automatic air and surface target detection and tracking of low flying Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles (ASCMs), surface threats and low/slow flying aircraft, UAVs and helicopters."

Therefore, it scans from near the ship up to the horizon while rotating horizontally. My guess is that it does so by means of electronic scan, which can be accomplished through frequency scanning besides phase scanning.

Check this out:
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And I quote:
1614365487443.png
and
1614365404506.png
It seems to me that SPQ-9B does not have any electrical or mechanical scanning capability in the vertical plane, it is still a 2D radar as SPQ-9A. So there is no reason for it to be ESA.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Check this out:
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And I quote:
View attachment 69280
and
View attachment 69279
It seems to me that SPQ-9B does not have any electrical or mechanical scanning capability in the vertical plane, it is still a 2D radar as SPQ-9A. So there is no reason for it to be ESA.
OK. After drawing the geometry on paper, I understand now why vertical scanning is not needed. The radar is mounted at about 40m altitude on a destroyer. The cross-section of the beam has a diameter of 87m at 5km distance and expands to 645m at 37km, so all low flying objects from that distance out to the radar horizon will easily fall within the radar beam envelope.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are right about it being a slotted array.

It uses a modified transmitter from the APG-68 radar on the F-16s, which also have a slotted array. Friedman claims that the emitted beamwidth is 1x1 deg, as do other sources. If all this radar does is aim the beam at the horizon, how can it track a missile without vertical scan? That beam is just 650m wide from 37km away. AFAIK, the array has no mechanical swivel in the vertical direction.

From
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:
"The AN/SPQ-9B scans out to the horizon and performs simultaneous and automatic air and surface target detection and tracking of low flying Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles (ASCMs), surface threats and low/slow flying aircraft, UAVs and helicopters."

Therefore, it scans from near the ship up to the horizon while rotating horizontally. My guess is that it does so by means of electronic scan, which can be accomplished through frequency scanning besides phase scanning.

Frequency scan doesn't do pulse compression and frequency agility good, and if you have requirements for both you have to look elsewhere.

The idea that the antenna is only 3D kind of behooves me, as it won't be much of an upgrade over the SPQ-9A used in the Tico or the SPS-67 used in the Burke. The SPS-67 is the one that looks like a navigation radar, which are typically slotted linear arrays (like slotted planar array but only a single row). If you are 2D only, your purpose is better served with typical oval shaped parabolic or slotted linear arrays. The design of the SPQ-9B is an array that is taller than it is wider, and that points to some kind of elevation determination.

There are other ways you can do height finding. One is to allow for the array to mechanically nod up and down, and slotted arrays in planes scan by mechanically nodding up and down and shifting left to right from a gymbal. For this purpose you can probably allow for a minimum or moderate degree of nodding.

The second is that the array does height multipathing. This you can do with a single beam, and it requires that you have surface reflection and the radar set at a height, both requirements are well satisfied here.

Rundown of height multipathing.
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The beam can be a fan shaped or stacked lobe cosecant pattern. The beam reaches both its minimum range point to its maximum range. The SPQ-9B has curved faces, and it makes me wonder if the radome is meant to spread the beams into this pattern.

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Height multipathing and cosecant patterns might be used in a number of Chinese naval radars, including those commonly used like Type 360, 362, 363, 364 and 366. These radars might look "2D" but could be capable of providing height information of the target.

The VHF Type 517 radars and its successor on the 052C/D/DL, and also used on other ships could be using another method like a goniometer, where elevation is measured by measuring the difference of the echo on the higher element vs. the lower element.

I apologize in advance for being off topic in the thread.
 
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by78

General
FGZFZY thinks the second batch of 055s is about to commence. He is not sure if they will be a slightly improved version of 055 or the much improved 055A. If the former, the wait won't be long.
已经确定启动了,准备过会。是小改的055+还是大改的A,目前不知道。但如果大改,号料和其他时间比较多。所以从现在到可以看见舰体分段来说,时间短的是+,时间很长才看见是A
51002795306_02459c4893_o.png
 
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