055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nonetheless there are a great many demands to be made of that budget if China does indeed seek to attain "superpower-class" capabilities across all military domains. Submarines, carriers and their air wings, amphibious capabilities, helicopters of all varieties, strategic airpower, space and counter-space capabilities -- these and other areas will require dramatically greater investment going forward, and this will necessarily constrain the funds that are available to spend on surface combatants. I would not be surprised if the real level of funding for surface combatant construction and sustainment remains relatively flat going forward.

If left unchanged, the China curve will go on and on until it reaches and then exceeds the US budget in nominal terms. It looks even closer in PPP terms.

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If funding for surface warships is a % of the military budget, then the funding goes up each year, even if the percentage is flat. For the funding to remain flat in absolute terms, the percentage has to be reduced and I don't see it happening. Submarines, carriers and amphibious capabilities are only going to increase the need for surface warships to help cover them. What may change is the demand and mission roles for the warships being imposed, which will direct the designs of the warships, and the overall fleet composition. You may see decreased production of certain warships, which can allocate more funds and resources to building more 055s for example. Or you can go the other way around, reducing the funds and resources for 055s and 052Xs for let's say, building a lot more 054B/057.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's bigger. Over time Type 055 replaces Type 052D the same way Type 052D replaces Type 052C the same way Type 052C replaces Type 052B the same way Type 052B replaces Type 052.

052D, 052C, 052B and 052 are not that bigger than each other. The B, C and D are all built from the foundation that is the 052 hull, although I I might probably say the B represents an internal overhaul of the 052 but still sports its DNA. This probably helps giving it a visual context.

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The thing is, the 052D is an evolution from a line of ships, and this DNA is aging. There is only so much you can fit, grow and update this base design, and you maybe reaching its peak.

In contrast, the 055 hull is an absolutely new platform, and there is plenty of growth everywhere. The 055 is merely the beginning, and it can have A, B, C and so on evolutions in the long run.

If you are looking past the combat capabilities, the more missiles, better sensors, communications and all, the 055 is really a foundational shift for the PLAN. The ship itself is the beginning of its own family for many years to come.
 

Lethe

Captain
If funding for surface warships is a % of the military budget, then the funding goes up each year, even if the percentage is flat. For the funding to remain flat in absolute terms, the percentage has to be reduced and I don't see it happening.

I'm sure that the overall level of military spending will continue to increase going forward, but I am indeed suggesting that the proportion of funds allocated to new surface combatants will decline over time, such that real levels of funding for surface combatants may remain flat, or at least not increase dramatically over the coming decades.

Submarines, carriers and amphibious capabilities are only going to increase the need for surface warships to help cover them.

China's surface combatants are already well ahead of the broader curve of Chinese military capabilities. China has been outbuilding USN in terms of surface combatants for more than a decade now: superior quantities and more or less comparable quality. Other segments such as nuclear submarines or strategic airpower are nowhere near competitive in terms of either quantity or quality. Some of that is a choice, reflecting a desire not to overcommit to platforms that are fundamentally uncompetitive. But nonetheless, what it means is that going forward, if China is to attain something like parity across the full spectrum of capabilities, dramatically greater funding is going to be required in those segments, significantly in excess of the growth delivered by the broader economy (and translated through to the overall defence budget).

China is not going to develop a robust strategic airpower capability (or nuclear submarines or aircraft carriers) in any useful timeframe by increasing current allocations to H-6, etc. by 5% per year. As research and development projects come to fruition the resources needed to turn those advancements into useful numbers of operational platforms and fielded forces (i.e. replicating the boom in surface combatant construction that commenced in the mid-2000s) is going to require a doubling, tripling, quadrupling of prior expenditure, and over a quite short span of time. Those funds are going to come from somewhere, and it is very likely that they will come in part from a segment that is already tracking very well indeed: surface combatants. You can put nuclear-powered submarines in place of strategic airpower if you like.

I am not suggesting that there is going to be a "crash" in surface combatant construction, or that relatively flat funding for surface combatants going forward means a limited force. In the long-term, I think it is entirely plausible that PLAN will match USN in terms of blue water surface combatants, plus additional littoral combatants.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm sure that the overall level of military spending will continue to increase going forward, but I am indeed suggesting that the proportion of funds allocated to new surface combatants will decline over time, such that real levels of funding for surface combatants may remain flat, or at least not increase dramatically over the coming decades.



China's surface combatants are already well ahead of the broader curve of Chinese military capabilities. China has been outbuilding USN in terms of surface combatants for more than a decade now: superior quantities and more or less comparable quality. Other segments such as nuclear submarines or strategic airpower are nowhere near competitive in terms of either quantity or quality. Some of that is a choice, reflecting a desire not to overcommit to platforms that are fundamentally uncompetitive. But nonetheless, what it means is that going forward, if China is to attain something like parity across the full spectrum of capabilities, dramatically greater funding is going to be required in those segments, significantly in excess of the growth delivered by the broader economy (and translated through to the overall defence budget).

China is not going to develop a robust strategic airpower capability in any useful timeframe by increasing current allocations to H-6, etc. by 5% per year. As research and development projects come to fruition the resources needed to turn those advancements into useful numbers of operational forces (i.e. replicating the boom in surface combatant construction that commenced in the mid-2000s) is going to require a doubling, tripling, quadrupling of prior expenditure, and over a quite short span of time. Those funds are going to come from somewhere, and it is very likely that they will come in part from a segment that is already tracking very well indeed: surface combatants. You can put nuclear-powered submarines in place of strategic airpower if you like.

I am not suggesting that there is going to be a "crash" in surface combatant construction, or that relatively flat funding for surface combatants going forward means a limited force. In the long-term, I think it is entirely plausible that PLAN will match USN in terms of blue water surface combatants, plus additional littoral combatants.

China's massive growth in surface combatants comes because China is in massive need for them due to its enormous coastal underbelly. Instead of needing less, it may even need more and more, because its not just China's coastal waters, regions, and claimed waters that need to be protected by also its trade routes. XJP's BRI ignited the acceleration for the PLAN to be transformed from a brown water to blue water.

In terms of surface combatants, what China does not need more is littoral seas brown water combatants. But it still is in great need for larger blue water combatants. Much of the 2010-2020 explosion in ships, a huge part lies with brown water combatants as opposed to larger blue water ships. You trim away the corvettes and then the frigates, and you will realize that the number of ships that can provide a wide area fleet air defense is much more limited vs. let's say US, Aus, UK and Japan combined. China might have been outpacing the US in terms of surface warship building, but the US has an enormous lead time in building its AEGIS destroyers and cruisers that there are 67 Burkes alone plus another 22 Ticos. That's way more than all the 052C, 052D, 055 and 054A combined. In addition to that, the 052C, 052D and 054A are underarmed with less missiles than a Burke. This actually spurs the need for more 055 and less of the other ships, other than an ASW oriented blue water ship like see below which you will also need.

As for nuclear submarines, no amount of budget will increase the number of output per year because you are limited to one facility that makes them, and it has to divide that output between attack subs and ballistic subs. The low number of nuclear attack subs isn't due to the lack of money, but because the facilities are too busy churning out nuclear ballistic subs instead. This requires a large offset using AIP powered SSKs that are built from another facility. Which is also, limited to one facility. Technically, there are two facilities that can make AIP powered SSKs, but the other facility would already be tied up making carriers and destroyers. Once again, putting more money isn't going to increase the number of SSKs you can make in a year because there is only one facility that makes it. Ironically, in order to counter the USN's submarine advantage, you have to resort to ASW oriented surface warships because it happens to be the surface ship industry that can scale up rapidly.

China's strategic airpower capability is limited because it lacks overseas bases. There is a limit to how much you can grow both the PLAAF and the PLANAF because you are tied to bases in the mainland. No matter how many planes you make, they are essentially much like your littoral brown water combatants --- they can't go far beyond the mainland and they can cover similar regions beyond the coast that can be covered by a fighter umbrella. Smaller planes like the J-10, they are even more limited. Instead of building more shorter ranged, local air defense aircraft, you shift the existing budget and production resources to building more longer ranged aircraft and UAVs. Building more H-6s? This is still an obsolete jet, and putting all your eggs into the H-6 basket is extremely risky because of its vulnerabilities.

In my view, even within the existing budgets you can optimize both navy and airforce by reducing shorter range and obsolete combatants and focusing on the longer ranged more advanced ones. You can grow numbers of J-16s, J-20s and 055s without sacrificing one or the other through reprioritizing.
 
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ChineseToTheBone

New Member
Registered Member
I am not suggesting that there is going to be a "crash" in surface combatant construction, or that relatively flat funding for surface combatants going forward means a limited force. In the long-term, I think it is entirely plausible that PLAN will match USN in terms of blue water surface combatants, plus additional littoral combatants.

With the global economic downturn from this current pandemic, I am more willing to bet on greater surface combatant orders.

Demand for commercial vessels would undoubtedly be reduced with fewer international orders coming, in which the government might incentivize shipyards to continue operations at the same pace and maintain employment levels with the construction of naval vessels.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
On 055 vs 052D. There are many key advantages already. It uses newer AESA radars with bigger array size, so it would be like J20’s radar vs J10C’s. Both are of the same class, but one is newer and bigger, so should yield considerable performance improvements.

This same principle applies pretty much to all electronics, from hammers to comms. It’s all newer and bigger.

On top of that, you have much more work done on electronic signature integration and harmonisation, so all of its radars, comms, EW, datalinks etc should work together much better, with better performance and less interference.

There are the more VLS cells and helicopters, but I think the biggest and most important difference between the 055 and 052D is in terms of future growth potential.

Essentially, the 052DL is the end of the 052 line in terms of potential for growth. Other than incremental upgrades, I don’t think we are going to seem significant new generation systems and capabilities being added to the 052D, whereas the 055 is pretty much at the start of its life, with massive headroom for growth and improvement.

IEPS is probably the next big thing for the class, but will only be for new builds. Existing builds should have 25mw super generations to allow them to make news of next gen rail guns and lasers once those become operationally available.
 

Dante80

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why would they want to do that? They don't need the range, and a proper IEPS would take care of any high power needs (like kinetic weapons) without the need of nuclear propulsion.

There is a pretty specific reason that nuclear powered combattants other than CVNs and Subs never became a big thing.
 

obj 705A

Junior Member
Registered Member
Will China develop a type-055 version with Nuclear marine propulsion?

Several years ago I remember reading an article that said equipping a ship with nuclear propulsion would increase the price by around 100$ millions or more depending on the size of the ship. in that case if you are increasing the price then you have two choices, either use the extra money to increase the size of the ship & increase the number of it's VLS cells while keeping the propulsion conventional, or use the extra money to have nuke propulsion while keeping the VLS count & ship size the same.

We have already seen how with the help of supply ships the PLAN's DDGs can easily reach as far as the Baltic and when more & more Type 901 get inroduced you will see the DDGs going even further & more frequently in the Atlantic though that largely depends on the EU's relations with China.

Personally I don't support the idea of nuke powered DDGs but instead I support the idea of a Nuke powered supply ship! building 10 such ships would cost next to nothing, a miniature model was actually presented

Will China's next-generation supply ship be nuclear-powered?
On September 5, the No.719 Research Institute of China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) unveiled a model of a nuclear-powered comprehensive supply ship based on the marine nuclear-powered platform demonstration project.

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So the Chinese definitely did study this idea, whether they will do it is an open question.

an alternative to that would be to have 2 more bases, one in South Asia or the Arab Gulf region (either Pakistan or Iran) and the second base needs to be at the western side of Africa, I'm pretty sure after some years from now the Chinese could easily find a western African country that is willing to host a PLAN base.
 

by78

General
Dalian update...

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