Type 054B/next generation FFG thread


Bltizo

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That looks a bit like the radar solution on the French general purpose FREMM subvariant frigate. Which, if implemented, should be a fairly decent solution - cheap but still capable.

Only drawback might be if the fact the search/tracking radar is rotating means there are still dedicated illuminator arrays for the anti air missiles.
Ideally, IF the missiles are still of semi active radar guidance, the tracking radar should at least double as illuminating radar as well. Which is not really doable with a rotating array.

Of course, a better solution still would be to use a missile with self guidance. Be it radar or infrared. Then a rotating radar should be enough to act as a datalink array, to converse with the missiles. (so dedicated datalink arrays aren't needed for that)
This new radar is twin face, and likely AESA, so the closest peer to this radar set up is the SAMPSON.


Needless to say, such a configuration would easily be able to guide ARH SAMs.

Herakles is a single face rotating PESA on french FREMMS.
Kronos is a single face rotating AESA on Italian FREMMs.

SAMPSON is a twin face rotating AESA on Type 45.


Not a bad deal for the PLANs future low/medium end frigate to have a similar radar configuration (both in radar horizon and likely in array size at least) to another navy's primary high end AAW destroyer.
 
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Tam

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I think the Type 054B will have a second dual backed dual band radar, which is the same you first saw on the Type 075. Its unlikely they developed that radar just for the Type 075 only. The second radar is used for queuing the HQ-10 and the CIWS, and serves as a surface search radar with a higher frequency, possibly C and X band. While it may not be necessary for other navies to field a second search radar, albeit in a high frequency, for surface scanning, this seems to be the Chinese Navy's design doctrine to have such, which is why they fielded the Type 364 radar just about on every ship, except when there is a substitute or successor that provides a functional equivalent.

The position will be that the larger dual sided radar will take the foremast, and the smaller, dual sided dual band radar will take an aft mast.

I also think that a 054A midlife refit can be done this way, replacing both the Type 382 and 364 radars.

If they want to test this configuration, there is some stripped down 054 and 052B they can use as a test bed and prototype.
 

Kejora

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I think the Type 054B will have a second dual backed dual band radar, which is the same you first saw on the Type 075. Its unlikely they developed that radar just for the Type 075 only. The second radar is used for queuing the HQ-10 and the CIWS, and serves as a surface search radar with a higher frequency, possibly C and X band. While it may not be necessary for other navies to field a second search radar, albeit in a high frequency, for surface scanning, this seems to be the Chinese Navy's design doctrine to have such, which is why they fielded the Type 364 radar just about on every ship, except when there is a substitute or successor that provides a functional equivalent.

The position will be that the larger dual sided radar will take the foremast, and the smaller, dual sided dual band radar will take an aft mast.

I also think that a 054A midlife refit can be done this way, replacing both the Type 382 and 364 radars.

If they want to test this configuration, there is some stripped down 054 and 052B they can use as a test bed and prototype.
You mean like SMART-L and S1850M in European frigates?

 

Bltizo

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I think the Type 054B will have a second dual backed dual band radar, which is the same you first saw on the Type 075. Its unlikely they developed that radar just for the Type 075 only. The second radar is used for queuing the HQ-10 and the CIWS, and serves as a surface search radar with a higher frequency, possibly C and X band. While it may not be necessary for other navies to field a second search radar, albeit in a high frequency, for surface scanning, this seems to be the Chinese Navy's design doctrine to have such, which is why they fielded the Type 364 radar just about on every ship, except when there is a substitute or successor that provides a functional equivalent.

The position will be that the larger dual sided radar will take the foremast, and the smaller, dual sided dual band radar will take an aft mast.

I also think that a 054A midlife refit can be done this way, replacing both the Type 382 and 364 radars.

If they want to test this configuration, there is some stripped down 054 and 052B they can use as a test bed and prototype.
I expect 054B to feature an X band radar of some kind, but at this stage I don't think we necessarily have to expect it to be the new radar aboard 075. It might be the same radar, or it may be a derivative (for example, a four fixed face array variant), or it might be a wholly different radar in general (like 055's X band).
 

Tam

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You mean like SMART-L and S1850M in European frigates?


Not really. That's an S and L-band combination, in addition to the L-band being lower than the S-band. The Chinese analogy to this would be more like the old radar setup on the Type 052 Qindao pre-refit. Historically, the RN loves long frequency radar, the Type 45 predecessor uses L-band and even before that, metric band. HMS Sheffield, the ship that sank in the Falklands war, has a metric band radar. But that's the RN's policy. These radars are optimized for sheer range, not higher resolution, target discrimination, faster target tracking at closer range like the Type 364 would, which is a C-band radar working with the main S-band radar.

Different navies have different priorities and thus they seem to have different opinions or doctrines with regards to the radar architectures of their ships. European prefers fewer but more multi-role in their radar sets while Soviet-Russian prefers a high degree of redundancy and dedication. For instance, with an FCR, European approach is typified with Thales STIR --- a single radar that combines gunnery, anti-ship targeting, and continuous wave illumination for missile targeting --- all in one. The Russians however, would have a single radar for each of these purpose --- Puma or Bass Tilt for gunnery, Positiz or Mineral for antiship, MR90s for illumination. That makes European ships clean and uncluttered, while Russian ships are bristling with antenna.

Type 364 is not meant for range, but to spot low flying sea skimmers as they rise above the radar horizon. The use of a relatively high frequency band is meant to have tighter beams to counter sea clutter and improve the angular resolution in response to meter wide antiship missiles that are only a few meters from the water. This means it does something the S or L-band radars would have more trouble doing, and won't do as good. The purpose of this radar is queue other radars and systems to the sea skimmer, and in the Type 364's case, its also a director for the HQ-10 and Type 730/1130 CIWS, plus other systems like the ship's EO and the Type 344 GFCS. There isn't a lot of similar radars to this on the Western side --- the best analog would be the SPQ-9A, which is an X-band radome that sits on the Ticonderoga but not on Burkes. This later is superceded by the SPQ-9B.

The Type 364 is ubiquitous throughout the PLAN. It first appeared on the Type 052B and is seen on the 051C, 054, 054A, 052C, 052D, Liaoning, and Shandong. Its also on the Type 901. It is refitted into the 052, 051B, and the Sovremenny that were on refit. It should be noted that the Sovremenny doesn't have this type of radar at all or anything similar to it. Of late, only the Type 071, the 022, the 056 and the 055 doesn't have it, but only because the Type 055 is fielding a successor to it in functional purpose while on the 056, its main radar is a variant of it. The Liaoning and the Shandong alone has two of these, one on each side of the island and nestled between the SATCOMs.

The Type 075 doesn't have this per se, but instead, the new dual band radar it is installing is very likely the successor to the Type 364. I seriously doubt that you will develop a new radar set just for the purpose of one class of ship. If the new dual band is the Type 364's successor, it opens up the possibility of replacing the Type 364 previously installed on all ships.

With such ubiquity in the PLAN, you can bet that such a radar and its purpose is deemed very important to the PLAN, and successive ships should have this or its functional successor.
 

Tam

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I expect 054B to feature an X band radar of some kind, but at this stage I don't think we necessarily have to expect it to be the new radar aboard 075. It might be the same radar, or it may be a derivative (for example, a four fixed face array variant), or it might be a wholly different radar in general (like 055's X band).
The dual sided radar you see works as the main search radar. This is #1

But you also need a fire control radar (GFCS and Antiship). This can be one or two sets. This is #2

PLAN's policy with radars is more complicated because it requires a third --- a dedicated surface search sea skimmer spotter that directs GFCS, HQ-10s, and CIWS. This is #3. Navies don't pursue #3 in an ubiquitous scale as the PLAN did, because they assume that #1 should take care of this. But the PLAN's planners seem to differ.

You can probably argue that #2 and #3 can be integrated into a single set like the Type 055. But the Type 075 choosing not to use this layout suggests there might be something with its new dual band here.

As long as there is something that does #2 and #3. It could be separate radars, or it can be one radar set that does both. The Type 055's X-band radars gave us the first real world option for a #2 and #3 combination; the Type 075's dual band gives us a second real world option for #3. The 054B/057 may still hatch a surprise and still present an entirely new option, who knows.

The Type 055's X-band radars has a high certainty of getting its second PLAN customer on the 003 carrier, as cutouts in the island mockup seem intended for it.
 

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