Type 054/A FFG Thread II


Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The latest fire control radar for the 054A may be the X/Ku band radar.
The strange thing is that China has adopted the new aesa fire control radar for its own use, but does not use the SR2410C as a search radar.
Pakistan uses the R2410C as a search radar. But there is no new aesa fire control radar. Maybe the hq-16 used by Pakistan is not the latest version used by China.
Considering that the illumination distance of MR90 is 45km, and the illumination distance of the new X band radar is 70 km.
Pakistan may use the HQ-16 with a range of 40km, while the new 054a uses the HQ-16C with a range of 70km that appeared at the Zhuhai Air Show.


The new AESA fire control radar for the HHQ-16 on the new Type 054A may not be approved for export yet which is why you don't see it on the Type 054AP. It's not the same X/Ku band radar shown here which swivels on its axis and there is one of it while the AESA fire control radars are fixed and there are four of them. More over, the X/Ku band is intended as a gun and CIWS fire control radar, not a missile target illuminator. The Type 347G uses X and Ku band, so it was easy to spot this new radar as it's intended replacement. On the Type 054A, a Type 347G sits on top of the bridge superstructure acting as a fire control for the main gun, but there are also two other Type 347G, and these are the ones fixed on the Type 730/1130 CIWS housing.

It's possible that the combination of SR2410C and the 4 new target illuminators could be too expensive for the budget if both are used on the same ship. I suppose that PLAN also meant to have the new dual sided AESA as the replacement for the Type 382 search radar and the new target illuminators are meant to work with it as you see on the test ship. But it turned out to be too expensive to use that radar with the new illuminators, driving the cost to over budget and so the latest 054A kept the old Type 382 instead.
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
The new AESA fire control radar for the HHQ-16 on the new Type 054A may not be approved for export yet which is why you don't see it on the Type 054AP. It's not the same X/Ku band radar shown here which swivels on its axis and there is one of it while the AESA fire control radars are fixed and there are four of them. More over, the X/Ku band is intended as a gun and CIWS fire control radar, not a missile target illuminator. The Type 347G uses X and Ku band, so it was easy to spot this new radar as it's intended replacement. On the Type 054A, a Type 347G sits on top of the bridge superstructure acting as a fire control for the main gun, but there are also two other Type 347G, and these are the ones fixed on the Type 730/1130 CIWS housing.

It's possible that the combination of SR2410C and the 4 new target illuminators could be too expensive for the budget if both are used on the same ship. I suppose that PLAN also meant to have the new dual sided AESA as the replacement for the Type 382 search radar and the new target illuminators are meant to work with it as you see on the test ship. But it turned out to be too expensive to use that radar with the new illuminators, driving the cost to over budget and so the latest 054A kept the old Type 382 instead.

According to articles that are swimming on the Chinese internet, the reason they kept Type 382 isn't that SR2410C went over budget, but because SR2410C is single-sided, while Type 382 is dual-sided. That means for the same RPM, Type 382 has twice the scan rate. The articles speculate that PLAN put more emphasis on scan rate than tech progression to AESA, so Type 382 it is.

For the dual-sided AESA, your hypothesis might be correct. But I think PLAN also considers other factors like power requirement, cooling, and design maturity when making the decision. They probably think the dual-sided AESA is not mature enough/has other conflicting requirements when the contract for more Type 054A was signed, so the choice was between SR2410C and Type 382. We now know how that ended.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
According to articles that are swimming on the Chinese internet, the reason they kept Type 382 isn't that SR2410C went over budget, but because SR2410C is single-sided, while Type 382 is dual-sided. That means for the same RPM, Type 382 has twice the scan rate. The articles speculate that PLAN put more emphasis on scan rate than tech progression to AESA, so Type 382 it is.

For the dual-sided AESA, your hypothesis might be correct. But I think PLAN also considers other factors like power requirement, cooling, and design maturity when making the decision. They probably think the dual-sided AESA is not mature enough/has other conflicting requirements when the contract for more Type 054A was signed, so the choice was between SR2410C and Type 382. We now know how that ended.


Dual sided "Type 383" which is what I am going to call it for now, has been decided long ago, which is why its seen in testing in 2019. That means development and approval of the project may have started some years before. SR2410C was likely never in the equation for acceptance with the PLAN due to the PLAN's requirement for dual sided scan rate, hence the SR2410C's pivot, starting a few years ago, to the export market. Its likely Type 383 was not mature yet when the Type 054A additional contracts were signed, just as you said, but SR2410C was likely not even in consideration. However, SR2410C is still regardless, offers the potential for superior ECM resistance, pulse compression, and frequency agility over the legacy Type 382, which uses a frequency scan method used with so many planar type search radars, going back to the late Sixties with the first SPS-48. ECM counter is the biggest reason for converting the ships to AESA.

I don't expect the full 20 ship batch to stick with the Type 382. I believe at some point, it may change to the Type "383", while the aft Type 364 may change to the Type "368", which is another dual sided AESA, C/X band frequency, first deployed on the Type 075. This results in the ship having two dual sided radars, which increases its scan rate. Type 364 is only single sided so going with the 368 on the aft will double the scan rate on the radar at the rear.

The Sino-Mineral Type 366 OTH radar and antiship targeting system will eventually be discarded, although its datalinks will be left. We can also replace the Type 347G fire control radar with a new X/Ku band FCR.
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Dual sided "Type 383" which is what I am going to call it for now, has been decided long ago, which is why its seen in testing in 2019. That means development and approval of the project may have started some years before. SR2410C was likely never in the equation for acceptance with the PLAN due to the PLAN's requirement for dual sided scan rate, hence the SR2410C's pivot, starting a few years ago, to the export market. Its likely Type 383 was not mature yet when the Type 054A additional contracts were signed, just as you said, but SR2410C was likely not even in consideration. However, SR2410C is still regardless, offers the potential for superior ECM resistance, pulse compression, and frequency agility over the legacy Type 382, which uses a frequency scan method used with so many planar type search radars, going back to the late Sixties with the first SPS-48. ECM counter is the biggest reason for converting the ships to AESA.

I don't expect the full 20 ship batch to stick with the Type 382. I believe at some point, it may change to the Type "383", while the aft Type 364 may change to the Type "368", which is another dual sided AESA, C/X band frequency, first deployed on the Type 075. This results in the ship having two dual sided radars, which increases its scan rate. Type 364 is only single sided so going with the 368 on the aft will double the scan rate on the radar at the rear.

The Sino-Mineral Type 366 OTH radar and antiship targeting system will eventually be discarded, although its datalinks will be left. We can also replace the Type 347G fire control radar with a new X/Ku band FCR.

From the brochure's pictures, the X/Ku band radars are structured in a way that looks like they're search radars instead of FCR. Are you sure PLAN will replace Type 347G fire control radar with something like that?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
From the brochure's pictures, the X/Ku band radars are structured in a way that looks like they're search radars instead of FCR. Are you sure PLAN will replace Type 347G fire control radar with something like that?

A phase array used as a fire control radar would still need to be in a rotating pedestal, and it should have its own search and detect mode and track while scan, then single target tracking. The one difference is that the radar glares at the target continously and achieves 3D scans both azimuth and elevation electronically, while rotating search radars do electronic scan only on elevation and mechanically rotated on azimuth. Having a Ku band is way too short ranged for a search radar, expect single digit kilometers at most, and the primary use of such high frequency, clutter discrimination and high angular resolution should be CIWS fire control against targets that are either flying very low over the water or on the water itself. You can see from the brochure its only up to 10km on a low rcs target.


download.jpegdownload (1).jpegpng-transparent-fire-control-system-fire-control-radar-talwar-pic-electronics-weapon-artillery.png
 
Last edited:

lcloo

Senior Member
7 type 054A launched/to be launched in 16 moths. Looks like they can launch all 20 new ships in 48 months period starting from July 2021 (launched date of the 31st ship). We might be able to see type 054B in drydock about 2 1/2 years from now.
 

Top